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neurological problems...what are your thoughts??

cobained

cobained

New member
I recently hatched out two creamsicle stripes from cream stripe x hypo lav (surprise hets i guess). first year breeding for both, small clutch, wound up with only 2 good eggs (and 2 more incubating from her surprise second clutch). I was gone the week leading up to their hatch date to be there for my nephew's birth, and my husband didn't do the greatest job keeping up with them. the moss was fairly dry when i got home and both babies had hatched that day. they both clearly have neurological issues (see video) and i'm wondering if you think this could be due to dehydration? eggs were incubated at RT on spaghnum moss, along side a clutch that hatched within a few days with all normal behaving babies.

(could not figure out how to embed the video, so click on the pic to watch it)

 
Hmmmm how are they when they are crawling around? and when they're startled?

THat looks ALOT like the vids I've seen of Gazers...

They eat, poop, shed, otherwise normal?
 
Yeah I was wondering if their movement is similar to stargazers. Very similar to a wobbly spider BP we had. They both just shed the day before last ok, refused their first meals (offered day of shed, so maybe just too early for them), pooping a little. They move like you would expect based on the video, have some decent forward movement but kind of stumble/wave their heads. They are becoming more active and somewhat less handicapped looking as they adjust, but mostly are VERY quiet and calm and explore very slowly. They really don't seem to startle (o:

On a side note, they're also shaped very oddly compared to my "normal" babies, and something you probably can't tell based on the video. They're shorter and fatter, and have very small heads.
 
I had the same movement from a set of twins from my last clutch. I didn't think that they were ment to be. It took me about 3-4 weeks after first shed to get them to eat but once they got a few meals in them they perked right up and started acting like normal snakes. They don't yet look normal yet but are starting to look more like a snakes. I think that their problem was just cause they were so tiny and did not have any srength.

I personally don't think that the moss drying out had anything to do with it. I use spaghnum moss too so I have had times that it dried out and the most that happened was the eggs dimpled a little. However, it could have been temps. High temps can cause neurologic problems. You might want to see how the second clutch does if that clutch has the same problems then you may also want to consider not breeding that pair again.

Please keep us posted. I hope they start acting normal.
 
Temps were not an issue, always between 79 and 84 or 85 tops, and the clutch next to them, same conditions, hatched out just fine. I'm curious too to see the two from the second clutch, to see if they're normal or not. If not, I definitely won't breed that pair again, and don't intend on breeding the female next year either way.
 
Reminds me of stargazing, too. I would feed them and keep an eye on them, if all goes well then I'd keep them as pets. I would also be a little worried that this problem may be inherited, try breeding the same pair again to maybe find out?
 
I hope that it was just something that happened. They sure do make pretty babies. When are the other eggs due to hatch?
 
Reminds me of Stargazers as well, will watch this thread to see what happens, with the next eggs and these guys.
 
These 2 boys are still kicking but have not eaten yet (they're about 6 weeks out I think). They're still active, but I've noticed that one of them can't flick his tongue out. I can hear sort of a click that I think is when he flicks it, but he doesn't have that groove for it to actually come out of his mouth. I think they also have several small kinks on them.

One of the 2 second clutch eggs has pipped, another cream stripe with the same somewhat weird head pattern, sort of just a large spot instead of the more typical arrowish stripey heads. I'm worried that it's going to be messed up too, but won't be able to tell until it comes out!
 
Very odd. I hope that pipped baby just has an abnormal head marking and fine otherwise. I have never seen a baby that didn't have a tongue groove maybe someone else has and could shed light on how they usually do. How is their head movement? Did it get any better? I am keeping my fingers crossed that this clutch is healthy and normal.
 
Creamsicles in general I've come to find 1 in 5 are prone to stargazing, I would just watch closely. I have a few heathly other wise stargazers. =)
 
Random8A said:
Creamsicles in general I've come to find 1 in 5 are prone to stargazing, I would just watch closely. I have a few heathly other wise stargazers. =)
Click to expand...


Can anyone else comment on this info? I've only heard of stargazing associated with sunkissed, and never heard of anyone with issues with creamsicles. I would think creams, if anything, would be LESS prone to genetic issues since they're hybrids (though, granted, they are probably as inbred as most corns and mine is probably several generations off of an actual corn x emoryi breeding).
 
I myself have never heard of this with Emory x Corns, or specifically creamsicles ( Amel Emory Corns). I have 4 Emory Corns here, 2 Creamsicles, 1 Fudgesicle (Anery) and 1 Rootbeer (Classic) all from Mary Vanderkop's line and she never mentioned to me any issues with Emory Corns having issues with Stargazing. Unless it is something she overlooked as I was originally not planning on breeding Hybrids, but I can say I have never heard of those stats yet.
 
First baby's out, second still hasn't pipped, and the mystery just grows deeper...mom was a virgin creamsicle, bred 3 times (witnessed and with evidence) to a hypo lav 2 year old. tried originally to breed her with a yearling stripe, but he wasn't up to it (since he was so much smaller, they were ALWAYS supervised). So the first 2 babies are amel stripe males with the odd stargazing. First baby from the second clutch appears MUCH healthier but still *might* have a slight wobble. Didn't want to stress it too much and I think I'm just looking for problems with it, but it is very active and has good forward motion. Same odd splotch head pattern. Oddly, this baby, also a male, appears to be a butter! I know it's premature to say that before the first shed, but it's VERY yellow looking and looks nothing like the amel brothers (pic for comparison). What this means to me is that the hypo lav who bred the cream stripe 3 times failed to father any babies from her, but the yearling butter stripe who never hooked up with her fathered her babies. On top of that, the other female I bred I can only figure out those babies by assuming the hypo lav, who bred her ONCE, fathered all of her babies while the butter (who actually DID breed with her) failed to father babies. How odd can this get!!! So much for a simple, het finding first year!

Also wanted to add all these babies seem to have VERY small heads. Maybe they're missing part of their brains. Seriously.
 

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I work with an exotic vet, and looking at the numbers we seem to get, and studies I've read, 1 in 5 will have it. Again, thats about all I've read up on about the " Cream Gene " Now Sunkissed on the other hand, now they're much more exciting when it comes to the stargazing gene. Beautiful babies Erika.
 
Which are the studies that you're referring to? Can you post references or links? Sounds like we need to start some academic reading.
 
Random8A said:
I work with an exotic vet, and looking at the numbers we seem to get, and studies I've read, 1 in 5 will have it. Again, thats about all I've read up on about the " Cream Gene " Now Sunkissed on the other hand, now they're much more exciting when it comes to the stargazing gene. Beautiful babies Erika.
Click to expand...
Please could you give links to those studies? I've never heard reference to either a 'cream gene' or to associated problems before. With creamsicles being so widespread the neurological problems must be an incredibly well-kept trade secret.
 
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