Cant make up my mind on a colony, Rats or Mice

[Allalaskan]

Now that I have 3 snakes I am considering starting my own colony for feeders. Atm I have 1 Corn snake over 33 inches now (have not weighted him yet so not sure on his weight) feeding on adult mice and a female python who is also feeding on adult mice along with a new male that the old owner was feeding 2 fuzzies every 2 weeks (He is plenty fat enough he should be on hoppers by now) but had not moved him up on food size because he was afraid the snake might split open (had the pet store tell him he could feed up to 2x the snakes size and watched a snake split open and die, so I can understand his worry).

I know that my BPs will be big enough one day to be eating rats but atm could not eat an adult rat. I have heard of some people feeding their adult corn snakes younger rats on here.

So Im debating on if I should start a rat colony or a mouse colony. Im thinking that I could feed off the rats offspring when they get to the right size and or kill them and freeze them at the right sizes as well if I end up with enough that will grow faster then I can feed off.

I was thinking 1.1 regular feeder rats from the pet store and breed them here at home so as not to have to pay the stupid high prices ($2.59 a mouse, not sure about rats but im sure they are more) If I can raise them at home for cheeper. Plus I can kill/freeze them at the optimal sizes.

I have never breed rodents before but I have been doing some research and plan on doing much more research before I commit to something such as this. I figured though that this would be a great place to add imput on something like this .

As for cages, I have 2 10 gallon fish tanks with lids that I was planning on using, would these be big enough for rats? If I have to I could feed mice to the BPs if I have too, and atm they are feeding on mice but if I can get them onto rats I figured in the long run it would be best.

So any imput from you guys/gals would be appreciated

Thanks

 

[ShenziSixaxis]

ratsratsratsratsratsratsratsratsratsratsrats



Rats seems to produce better numbers of babies and generally don't cannibalize, at they're super moms. I've only lost two pups out of 50+ to what I THINK was cannibalization, but I'm not sure. It was a first time mom though, so they could have also suffocated under their 14 other siblings and been eaten later.

A 10g tank is pretty much a horrible idea. I use Sterilite bins, 90qt sizes. They're more rectangular than straight or boxy, so they work wonderful. I solder out a section of either the small side or the top (generally not the top since these stack well). The bin is 10-12 dollars (might be 15 for you up by Russia), but it's worth it. A lot of people say it's a chew out waiting to happen, and I have had them chew on it some, but not nearly enough to chew out. Plus, if you have mega chewers, you need to get rid of those... All chewer rats I've had have ended up being ones that aren't pet worthy in the least.

Rats don't need a real strict diet like mice either. Mine have been doing great, even with popping out around 15 pups per litter, on dog food, some cat food, and random junk. I feed mainly Iams ProActive Health Weight Control and The Goodlife Recipe cat food for extra protein and fat (though I feed mainly this to grow outs). I would add a lab block but can't find a supplier.
Foods I've found rats love:
steamed rice
oatmeal
corn meal (especially if you put some sort of treat mixed in)
tortillas
Flukers' crappy crested gecko food
baked sweet potatoes
baked potatoes
and just about any sort of chips


Rats also don't stink like mice. They have an odor, but it's not overwhelming unless you really need to clean the bin.



As for feeding rats to corns, I recommend you feed either a slightly smaller than usual prey item, as rats are heavier than mice. Or, you could feed a normal sized item and decrease the feeding by one or two days. They'll probably go through a growth spurt at first, too, so don't worry if they shed sooner than you expect when you switch.


Any questions?

 

[medusacoils]

Rats are nice but have a higher fat content. I generally stick to rats on reluctant feeders because they are so appealing to snakes. Kind of a snack food. They do have large litter though and are more nutritious as they get older.

I would suggest ASF's. They are big, breed like mad and their babies get bigger then common mice. They are also a good size for balls too. Large adult mice are too small for a full grown ball.

Wayne

 

[Allalaskan]

Rats are nice but have a higher fat content. I generally stick to rats on reluctant feeders because they are so appealing to snakes. Kind of a snack food. They do have large litter though and are more nutritious as they get older.

I would suggest ASF's. They are big, breed like mad and their babies get bigger then common mice. They are also a good size for balls too. Large adult mice are too small for a full grown ball.

Wayne

Thats what I was was worried about, I know my ball pythons are small now but wont stay that way for ever. And I want to get them onto rats asap since I have heard of stories of people having to feed 5-6 mice a week and im not really looking forward to that if I dont have too . Im not sure if they have ASFs at the pet store locally but I will look.


Now do you have to keep the buck and doe separate or can you keep them in the same bin all the time? I have a 110 quart bin already that isnt being used for anything atm.

Now are ASFs as "Fatty" as regular feeder rats?


Also I figured if the Rats are too fatty for my corn I could keep buying mice if I have to, but I know Rats cost even more up here so I figured if I could raise my own for the bps at least it would help keep down my feeding costs. Especially if they can eat Dog food (I have 2 big dogs already) and other treats like ShenziSixaxis has listed.

 

[medusacoils]

Thats what I was was worried about, I know my ball pythons are small now but wont stay that way for ever. And I want to get them onto rats asap since I have heard of stories of people having to feed 5-6 mice a week and im not really looking forward to that if I dont have too . Im not sure if they have ASFs at the pet store locally but I will look.


Now do you have to keep the buck and doe separate or can you keep them in the same bin all the time? I have a 110 quart bin already that isnt being used for anything atm.

Now are ASFs as "Fatty" as regular feeder rats?


Also I figured if the Rats are too fatty for my corn I could keep buying mice if I have to, but I know Rats cost even more up here so I figured if I could raise my own for the bps at least it would help keep down my feeding costs. Especially if they can eat Dog food (I have 2 big dogs already) and other treats like ShenziSixaxis has listed.

ASF's are pretty good. They don't have too much fat on them. No more than a regular mouse. They do get larger but their pinks are good for young snakes. They have large litters which is a plus.

We don't usually separate the bucks and does. Doing this does give the females a break but you can have a hard time getting them back together again.

If you feed dog food to your rodents. You want to see what the fillers are and if they use coloring. A filler of corn usually leads to "fatty" rodents. Coloring isn't good for the snakes too. Remember, whatever you feed your rodents, your feeding your snakes too.

Wayne

 

[ShenziSixaxis]

I go with absolutely no red dyes in my rodents' food, and the only source of other dyes they might get is from table scraps I deem okay for them (such as mac and cheese).

As for rats being fattier than mice, that's why I don't feed them as often. However, you should remember that fat equals energy, which is good for younger animals, and breeding females if that interests you. I don't have any ADULT corns, my biggest is 182 grams, but both of them firmed up when they were turned onto mostly rats, and the same corn also started looking more like an adult than when I got her.


I generally keep my does and buck(s) together. This is good for back to back breeding, but all my females have gotten skinny with their first litter, and as they came from a doe who produces large litters (the largest she had before I put her down was 19), sometimes you don't want to back to back breed like with mice or ASFs.
Since I was also going to breed for markings, I was keeping my males together away from females and introduced a male and select female/s in the bathtub and left them there with a few bits of food for at least two hours.



I had a horrible experience with ASFs. When I tried breeding mice, my does would be used and abused all the time but never got pregnant. With the ASFs, they were never breeding at all, in the few months I had them didn't grow at all, CANNIBALIZED two females for no apparent reason, and took every opportunity to bite me.
I don't know if it was my fault or something being wrong with them, but all I know is I never even saw the male mounting them.

 

[Allalaskan]

Good info you guys

Im not even sure if my local pet store has ASFs, last time I was in they had regular white red eyed mice and rats then they had hampsters, gerbils, guinea pigs and rabbits but I dont remember any ASF (african soft Furred right?) at all. SO I may have to go with regular mice or rats and im leaning heavily towards rats atm. It will be a few weeks before I start this (low on money atm) but I already have the big 110 quart bin. Now for bedding I was planning on using Aspen since I already use it for my snakes and guinea pigs, would that be a problem for rats? I wouldnt think so but thought I would ask.

 

[Allalaskan]

O and im not sure on his weight, but my corn was 37 inches last time I measured him and he has grown some. So hes not a baby but still young.I need to get a scale so I can weight my snakes too.

 

[ShenziSixaxis]

I don't think it matters with rodents. I'm 100% certain though that the extra price for aspen is not worth it for them, and that pine or softwood in general does a better odor control. I get big bags of either at Petco from the rodent section. The aspen bag is 13 bucks for large chips, while the softwood bag (pine, fir, and spruce) is 11 bucks also quite a bit heavier with smaller and fluffier flakes, which also absorb SO much better than the aspen did.

37 inches is a bit larger than Lotem who could take an adult mouse or good sized rat pup. She's the one who's 182 grams.
Walmart now has a digital scale that weighs in grams and ounces up to 10,000 grams/10 pounds that I got for 35 bucks; a lot better than online herp stores. Walmart's website also has other digital scales, even one that weighs up to 6.6lb and is less than 20 bucks.

Can you find the 110 quart bin you're using online somewhere? I've never seen one that big, but I'm sure rats or mice will love you for all the space.
Also, when you cut out a hole for ventilation, you can only go as big as 1/4 inch or you're gonna see something like this with mice and young rats will get through it as well if it's not off the ground well.

 

[Allalaskan]

O wow! he looks a little stuck.

I actually got the bin from Target up here In Wasilla. It was the second biggest they had a I think. I payed $20 for it.

Seth is on Adult mice also, when I got him they were feeding him 3 fuzzies per feeding at the pet store, I went from that to a hopper then to an adult and never looked back.

As for my BPs Jess my female is already on Adult mice but Jericho (whom I have not fed yet) I was told by his last owner was being fed 2 fuzzies. He is fat enough though I think he should be on a hopper at least. Im waiting to feed him though for at least a week and until he is done shedding.

I figured if I start a colony it would be a few weeks after I get them (which will be a few weeks lol) before I PLAN (not every thing goes as planned lol) to breed rats but we will see.

 

[ShenziSixaxis]

When I started out, I had pups 21 and 22 days after, so I was lucky and the does were introduced when in heat. When my females are used to me, I can go and gently scratch their rump to make them dash off, and then if I immediately scratch again to make them stop running or right when they stop, they'll look like they've had batteries put in them and the setting turn to vibrate when the way they shake, and this lets me know if they're in heat, rather than hoping for the best.

Since rats don't care much about day/night cycle, you should expect rat pups 3-4 weeks after you introduce them.

You're BPs will probably take 5 week old rats like they're nothing. Most people put BPs on rats from the start since they can be hard to switch, but I don't think you'll have any problems.

 

[Allalaskan]

I hope not, I know my female was under fed for a while so im not to concerned about her, but I dont know about the new male bp. I think I will try Seth on them too and space out his feedings if he starts getting chunky. I am going to do some more research on the ASFs, if they have them I am going to consider them but Im not sure yet if I want to deal with feeders that want to bite. Especially if I cant convert Jericho to F/T or prekilled because He is another Live fed snake that needs to be switched.

 

[Allalaskan]

I just found out the ONLY kind of rat I can have in the state of Alaska is a "white albino rat", no colored rats or any other species. I asked the pet store about ASFs on the phone and they don't carry them since the state considers them a "colored" rat. Looks like the Law made that choice for me lol.

I guess a while back they had some one in Anchorage who had a massive population of rats and they went on vacation for a week and some how the rats got out so now in Anchorage you cannot have ANY rats. And from this http://www.stoprats.org/wildlife.htm I guess some of the Aleutian Islands have been devastated from rats so they are trying to keep them out of the state best they can.

 

[ShenziSixaxis]

Huh.. weird and interesting.

BPs are heavy bodied pythons, so they're supposed to be thick. Unless you can start to see the skin between the scales that are not part of a coil but are straight and resting, it's fine.

 

[Bp_Lee]

Rats: More Space needed for caging. cool colors, can sell leftovers, can be messed with

Mice: Can house more per cage, smaller caging area used, Large litters, cool colors, can sell as pets if have leftovers, can be messed with

ASFs: Mean, attack sometimes when trying to feed/water. Bigger than mice, smaller than rats

 

[Allalaskan]

Well I bit the bullet and picked up 2 Female Rats and 1 Male rat. They are still a little young so I need to find out how big they can be before I start breeding them.

 

[Allalaskan]

Ok, so I am uploading pictures as I type this but I have another question. Is it possible for an Albino Rat or mouse to have colored babies? I was at the pet store yesterday and while they were getting the rats I noticed they had 4 or 5 different mice in there with litters 3 of them were albino and half the babies were colored and the other half white. So I was just wondering, is it possible for 2 albinos to have colored babies or will two albinos always have albino babies?

 

[Allalaskan]

Ok here is the male...

This is his temparery cage for now, Im thinking about picking up another male for a cage mate for him and getting another big 116 quart tub.




and the two females.

Im also thinking about building a base for my Snakes Viv that I can have the 2 big tubs (still need to get another big one) can pull out. This way I can keep every thing for the snakes (or almost every thing) in that one little area.

Any way How old do you think these gals/guy are? I asked the "pet team" member that helped me with them and all he said was "they are young" but couldn't tell me how old exactly. I don't want to breed them to early and have complications.

 

[knox]

I can't say anything about the breeding aspect, but the bin looks good.

 

[Allalaskan]

This is the Temp cage I have the male in, the pic didnt post.

I plan on getting him a new cage in a couple weeks.Or sooner we will see.