"Epilogue"

[BloodyBaroness]

It is used for dogs, cats, and if I'm not mistaken, avians.

Again, it's all about the dosage and how diluted a shake you give.

I think that's the big point. It is used a dewormer in very very young kittens and puppies. Dosage and dilution are the key.

In the wild reptiles ingest all kinds of bits, shards, flakes, and general crap, I think they can handle some DE in a slurry. You gauge the dosage by the size of the animal, and not daily. Their kidneys will be fine.

 

[Tara80]

Larger has nothing to do with cellular size and how it would react to that.
If it's a concern to you, maybe call a vet and discuss this specific concern with them, or someone who specializes in biology or similar.
Also, that is *NOT* why it kills crypto, as I said earlier the ionic charge attracts crypto and it becomes lodged and eliminated from the system.

 

[Carinata]

I did call a vet but for legal reasons they said they couldn't give me any information. I'm trying to get some good info for you guys, just finding a lot of conflicting veiws.

 

[Tara80]

In the individual (food grade) form, the diatomites are sharp but they aren't adhered to each other (so they are extremely small). Any internal damage would be minimized, if at all, due to mucus lining, etc and by the time it'd reach the kidney/liver it'd mostly be compacted with all of the crap it attracts and picks up, if given in the proper dosage and would not pose as a danger.

I'd imagine that the mucus lining is why your friend from earlier feels that it will not be totally effective. It'd be really tough for DE to pull and pick up (all) of the protozoa burrowed in the stomach/intestine wall with the body's natural defense systems like the lining. But it can eliminate anything that hasn't fully attached yet.

 

[Kokopelli]

It's trial and error as far as I am concerned... bear in mind that I am testing this on Crypto Positive animals... the future is not that bright for them, so it's better to try and fail then not do anything, I think.

 

[diamondlil]

The DE won't be in the liver/kidneys, it won't be absorbed and enter into the blood stream at all. The particles are too big to pass through out of the digestive system. The whole idea is for the DE to pick up the protozoa as it passes through. At work we give a (reported by the patients who always hate it) foul slurry called calcium resonium either by mouth or very occasionally by enema to remove excess potassium by the same ionic charge system. None of the slurry passes into their blood system at all. (How can I be absolutely 100% positive it doesn't? Because these are people on constant blood value measuring because of the dangerously high potassium levels, the calcium levels in their blood don't change. Typically the slurry is given for 3 days, twice a day to scour up and bind to the excess K

 

[ceduke]

My customers at work also use DE in birds and other delicate animals. I think that it's worth a shot, and I'm very interested to see how it progresses. I have a big jar of DE in my room right now that I use to keep bugs out of the garden.

 

[Carinata]

Janine, can I quote you on that to both Michael and Pat? Wanna get their take on it. Since you run blood values and such, it makes a very good case.

 

[diamondlil]

Janine, can I quote you on that to both Michael and Pat? Wanna get their take on it. Since you run blood values and such, it makes a very good case.

If you like. Obviously I fiddle around with human biochemistry 3 nights a week, so a good reptile vet would be the person to check with to se if the situation is analogous. Given that macaws and monkeys in the Amazon seek out clays to eat to neutrilise toxins from the leaves and fruits they eat, I'm sure it holds true across birds and mammals. I can't find any reference to similar in reptiles, except for crocs eating stones!

 

[Kokopelli]

Janine, can I quote you on that to both Michael and Pat? Wanna get their take on it. Since you run blood values and such, it makes a very good case.

I have to admit, having spoken with Pat, that he seemed rather defensive about the whole thing...(kind of quick to negate the idea).
I think that it would be more effective to wait and see how things go here, and then inform him about any progress, if any was made... speculation won't really help here nor there.

Just my two cents' worth.

 

[Carinata]

I tried talking to an exotic vet and they told me they couldn't give me any information unless I brought the animal to their clinic. I tried telling them it was for research purposes, but they wouldn't have it.

 

[Carinata]

I have to admit, having spoken with Pat, that he seemed rather defensive about the whole thing...(kind of quick to negate the idea).
I think that it would be more effective to wait and see how things go here, and then inform him about any progress, if any was made... speculation won't really help here nor there.

Just my two cents' worth.

Pat mentioned at the show, he got your email. He said he gets so many emails from people asking if this or that will work, it's a little frustrating. He did however say results from his trials will be public shortly.

 

[Kokopelli]

I believe that there's more information outside of the veterinary institution then there is inside of it as far as reptiles are concerned at this day and age... money talks, and reptiles are not profitable enough for anyone to take interest.

Research has to be conducted in certain ways... and has to rely on literature rather than what vets say... they are probably afraid of being persecuted or God knows what.

I think that everything that could have been said, was said- I promise to keep everyone posted, though I don't know how long it will take for me to get absolute results...
I also hope the DE I ordered won't get stuck in customs.

 

[diamondlil]

I believe that there's more information outside of the veterinary institution then there is inside of it as far as reptiles are concerned at this day and age... money talks, and reptiles are not profitable enough for anyone to take interest.

Can I also be a little bit cynical? You are sticking your head above the parapet by saying your collection has a health issue and that you are trialling a treatment regime.........what big import/trading/breeding concern would want to do that! It's far easier to dispose of suspect animals and carry on trading than to have them tested and take the flack......

 

[Carinata]

Pat took in crypto tested animals, to a separate location, where testing is being conducted. Nothing from his own stock.

 

[Kokopelli]

Can I also be a little bit cynical? You are sticking your head above the parapet by saying your collection has a health issue and that you are trialling a treatment regime.........what big import/trading/breeding concern would want to do that! It's far easier to dispose of suspect animals and carry on trading than to have them tested and take the flack......

Yes, naturally...
I am less concerned about it since I am moving to a hobby-sized collection and such... I'm no big scale breeder nor am going to be one, I suspect.
As such, there's really not much harm that can be done... I am also documenting it on a foreign forum, rather than locally.

It is partially why I realized I won't be a good animal dealer... I won't be able to bring myself to selling sick animals as though nothing happened... but honestly, what breeder can hope to survive if he ships out tests upon tests for every single mortality he experiences?

 

[Tara80]

But Oren, that's what we NEED. People who aren't going to sell known sick animals without conscious otherwise it will result in contamination of all stock.
Hopefully, if we all put our heads together, we will find something that works.
But honesty is what is necessary and needed for the success of this hobby... or any hobby really.

 

[Carinata]

Selling sick animals is not an attribute of any reptile dealer I know....

 

[Kokopelli]

But Oren, that's what we NEED. People who aren't going to sell known sick animals without conscious otherwise it will result in contamination of all stock.
Hopefully, if we all put our heads together, we will find something that works.
But honesty is what is necessary and needed for the success of this hobby... or any hobby really.

It depends on how you look at it.
From a business perspective, and there are people who have no choice but look at it from that angle since their very livelihood depends on snakes... you just can't quarantine and send a public warning every time a snake in your collection dies... it's unreasonable... we can't expect people to toss thousands of dollars(and in some cases hundreds of thousands) and to jeopardize everything over a single death or even a series of deaths.

Maybe it is better for the hobby, as a hobby to keep breeding in the hands of the enthusiasts... but then you will see a deal less morphs, a deal less finances will be invested in research, medicine, and so forth. You need both "types"... money is the energy that keeps everything going... and it makes sense... people need to be able to lead a decent lives even if their profession is snakes.

 

[Carinata]

As someone that works for a large breeder, I know if an adult breeder drops for no reason, we will look into it. If for some reason 2 or 3 die, we'll quarentine the entire rack. Breeders aren't as heartless as people think. These are people that made a career out of their hobby, and you can't beat that!