"Right to work" law.

[starsevol]

Well, see I think many companies don't care about if it is done right or wrong, they just want it done. When I worked a low skill job, I did it a heck of a lot better than many others and I got paid the same as everybody else. We don't exactly have a meritocracy. And this is a question of what we value, which is something we won't agree on.


Neither - it means the nonunion worker is underpaid and should be paid the same as the union worker.



We're a standstill too then because I think the corporate profit motive and the current form of capitalism we have is flawed, which is whole different debate.

The majority of jobs in this country are provided by small business. I own a small business. When your name is on the sign, you want it done right. Technically my business is a corperation, albeit a very tiny one. Believe me, we are hardly making a killing here!

 

[starsevol]

Unions are forcing the business to provide what service? The services I've been talking about is representation in negotiations in a collective bargaining agreement. That representation is provided by the union, not the business.

The service I was referring to was higher wage, job protection for people who would otherwise be fired, benefits that would not normally be a part of the package. And if a non union worker gets those benefits at the detriment of the union, I really don't feel too badly about it.

I see lots and lots of non working people living off the sweat of earners.
So someone getting the same pay for the same job in a union shop he doesn't pay dues to really doesn't fuss me much.

 

[Outcast]

The problem that I see with small businesses paying out the 30+ per hour that union workers get, is that those are the businesses that are getting hit hardest by the current economic issues that our country is going through. My mother in law owns a store, and they have been hit very hard by this economy, and will probably be closing their doors within the next year. They can barely afford to pay minimum wage to friends and family, and my mother in law has gone the better part of the year without a paycheck of her own. Her husband, who works for Border Patrol, is the only one bringing money into the house at the moment...

 

[starsevol]

The problem that I see with small businesses paying out the 30+ per hour that union workers get, is that those are the businesses that are getting hit hardest by the current economic issues that our country is going through. My mother in law owns a store, and they have been hit very hard by this economy, and will probably be closing their doors within the next year. They can barely afford to pay minimum wage to friends and family, and my mother in law has gone the better part of the year without a paycheck of her own. Her husband, who works for Border Patrol, is the only one bringing money into the house at the moment...

Yup that's us right there.....
min wage looks pretty good about now....

I think unions pretty much don't mess with mom and pops. They know there is no money there. But everyone sees "business" as evilllllll big business and most are not like that at all.

 

[mjdglobal]

I'm ashamed that this garbage was passed in my state. Everyone will eventually be worse off because of it, union and non-union workers alike.

 

[starsevol]

I'm ashamed that this garbage was passed in my state. Everyone will eventually be worse off because of it, union and non-union workers alike.

I think you are wrong. I hope you are.

Edited to add, you pout and stamp your feet and I will do a happy dance. We will see how this pans out in time. But no violence on either side is acceptable, and you know what I mean.

Who knows, might be nice to see some nicer quality cars coming out of Detroit.

 

[mjdglobal]

Well I'm not. Like you, I hope I am, however, it's been shown that this legislation is a wage killer in every state it's been passed.

 

[starsevol]

Well I'm not. Like you, I hope I am, however, it's been shown that this legislation is a wage killer in every state it's been passed.

Wage killer is only part of the issue.

How about employment statistics over all?
How about fewer bankrupt employers?

We shall see......

 

[mjdglobal]

You don't need to wait. Just look how worst off people are after it has passed in other states.

 

[starsevol]

You don't need to wait. Just look how worst off people are after it has passed in other states.

None of those states can be much worse off than this one, and unions own this one.

Question, is a lower paying job better than no job?

 

[mjdglobal]

Yes, they absolutely are worse off.

 

[starsevol]

Yes, they absolutely are worse off.

Impossible. This state has the highest unemployment, highest taxes, and harshest business climate of any state except for California. Or at least it is in the top 5 of the worst. Also in the top 5 of the worst states to retire to.

 

[mjdglobal]

I fail to see how eventually making less money is a benifit.

 

[Outcast]

Having a job is better than not having a job. I think is the point.

 

[starsevol]

Having a job is better than not having a job. I think is the point.

Yes, that is the point.
Some union members (many of the ones around here) seem to think the money and benefits train has no end.

 

[mjdglobal]

Then by your logic it would be OK if a doctor makes the same wage as a gas station attendant. After all, any job is better than no job.

 

[starsevol]

Then by your logic it would be OK if a doctor makes the same wage as a gas station attendant. After all, any job is better than no job.

That is not what I am saying at all, and I think you know that.

If a group of people doing the same job were unionized and the company they worked for had to close its doors as a result of the union demands coupled with the economy, then they are out of work. End of story.

If another group of people doing the same job were not unionized and made less money, but the company had plenty of work for them to do due to the closing of the union shop, then they still have a job.

 

[mjdglobal]

Yes, but in your example the non-union shop employees do not pay dues and do not benifit from union collective bargaining, bylaws training etc. With right to work (starve) they will get these benifits without paying dues etc. This will immediately make the non-union employee more attractive to a greedy employer.
Now, what I'm about to explain certainly does not apply to all trades, but to a great number of them. I'm going to use electricians and plumbers as an example. Union workers in these trades go through a 5 year program where they are trained in their trade,safety,rigging etc. Non-union tradesmen are not. Their work is inferior (even wrong) in many cases. They are hurt more often due to inadequete training. Sometimes this becomes dangerous (a boiler which is piped wrong can become a bomb). I'm sorry but a person better trained and qualified should be getting that job and making more money. Just like a doctor who spent several years in college should be paid more than a gas station clerk.

 

[starsevol]

Yes, but in your example the non-union shop employees do not pay dues and do not benifit from union collective bargaining, bylaws training etc. With right to work (starve) they will get these benifits without paying dues etc. This will immediately make the non-union employee more attractive to a greedy employer.
Now, what I'm about to explain certainly does not apply to all trades, but to a great number of them. I'm going to use electricians and plumbers as an example. Union workers in these trades go through a 5 year program where they are trained in their trade,safety,rigging etc. Non-union tradesmen are not. Their work is inferior (even wrong) in many cases. They are hurt more often due to inadequete training. Sometimes this becomes dangerous (a boiler which is piped wrong can become a bomb). I'm sorry but a person better trained and qualified should be getting that job and making more money. Just like a doctor who spent several years in college should be paid more than a gas station clerk.

I am still very very happy about the passing of that law.
Hope it spreads.

 

[mjdglobal]

And I'm disappointed my state is taking a step backwards. It's obvious you and me will never agree on this topic, but hey, at least we live in a great coutry where we are free to debate. At least we agree that corn snakes are awesome, lol. I hope none of these issues adversely affect you. Unfortunately this law is going to be very detrimental to a lot of people here.