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Motley Tessera vs. Stripe Tessera

Yes.
Sorry mate I gave all I had for now.
Next season will be more.
Maybe the vanished stripe will be there at motleys at adult size but I dont think so.
It seems that we will have a Problem in the future :(
Well lets wait for others to join in.
 
Yes.
Sorry mate I gave all I had for now.
Next season will be more.
Maybe the vanished stripe will be there at motleys at adult size but I dont think so.
It seems that we will have a Problem in the future :(
Well lets wait for others to join in.

Please don't be sorry. I appreciate you taking the time to post what you have (pics. & info) Any and all may help somewhere down the line.

Thanks, Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
What I would like to know/figure out if there is a difinitve way, to know exactly between the two ????

Science nerd weighing in. You could always run genetic profiles of known morphs and look for genetic markers that definitively answer your question and take the guesswork out of the dilemma. I suspect there are ways to do this that are non-invasive, not requiring bloodwork and therefore not harming the animals in any way.

This obviously isn't a visual method of determination, but can aid in developing such methods for best breeding practices, perhaps?

Just a thought.
 
Science nerd weighing in. You could always run genetic profiles of known morphs and look for genetic markers that definitively answer your question and take the guesswork out of the dilemma. I suspect there are ways to do this that are non-invasive, not requiring bloodwork and therefore not harming the animals in any way.

This obviously isn't a visual method of determination, but can aid in developing such methods for best breeding practices, perhaps?

Just a thought.

Thanks for your input.
This is what I was hoping (finding markers), as I mentioned thinking that one that has totally clean sides, void of latteral striping, would be a way of telling the difference, however it seems that not all Striped Tesseras are missing this.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Well, I guess there's just not a whole lot of interest in this topic :shrugs:....ok then.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Always love your threads, Walter. And your beautiful snakes. Just as well I am in Canada and have not got any easy way to get them here!
 
Always love your threads, Walter. And your beautiful snakes. Just as well I am in Canada and have not got any easy way to get them here!

Thanks so much, I appreciate it.
Yeah, I know what you mean, plus it's so darn expensive to ship to and from Canada :awcrap:

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Well, I guess there's just not a whole lot of interest in this topic :shrugs:....ok then.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

There's interest, because my jury is still out on a butter stripe I hatched out this season. He's from my Tessera het butter stripe X Butter Stripe.

My problem is that when I purchased the Tessera earlier this year, Don had him labeled as het butter MOTLEY. My sample set was fairly small. The female butter stripe, purchased from John Finsterwald, was the result of a project between he and Don. IIRC, she's ph hypo which I've not proven. Anyhow, the tessera pairing to her proved out the tessera as being het for albino, caramel, and STRIPE. From what everyone has told me, everything I've read, if he was indeed het motley, any non-tessera, non-blotched offspring should have been motley. :shrugs:

The pairing resulted in 4 eggs, 3 fertile, 1 bound that passed on own. The 3 fertile hatched resulting in a caramel, "Thor" my caramel tessera, and DelMonte my butter "stripe". Don and I went back and forth via e-mail compairing photos, etc., with him providing photos of some "wide-stripe" tesseras that looked confusing enough to be either striped, tessera, or striped tessera.

What I'm wondering is if tessera, though dominant, isn't someway somehow linked to motley/stripe. If I remember history right, the tough part is that the tesseras arose from a striped okeetee project?!

Thor...
CN13-FBSCT-003M-11-12-2013.jpg


DelMonte...
CN13-FBSBST-002M-11-12-2013.jpg



And some for what it's worth....Miami motley pinstripes from Nanci, whom my wife thought were more tesseras!

EZ2013_01A-11-12-2013.jpg


EZ2013_01C-11-12-2013.jpg
 
There's interest, because my jury is still out on a butter stripe I hatched out this season. He's from my Tessera het butter stripe X Butter Stripe.

My problem is that when I purchased the Tessera earlier this year, Don had him labeled as het butter MOTLEY. My sample set was fairly small. The female butter stripe, purchased from John Finsterwald, was the result of a project between he and Don. IIRC, she's ph hypo which I've not proven. Anyhow, the tessera pairing to her proved out the tessera as being het for albino, caramel, and STRIPE. From what everyone has told me, everything I've read, if he was indeed het motley, any non-tessera, non-blotched offspring should have been motley. :shrugs:

The pairing resulted in 4 eggs, 3 fertile, 1 bound that passed on own. The 3 fertile hatched resulting in a caramel, "Thor" my caramel tessera, and DelMonte my butter "stripe". Don and I went back and forth via e-mail compairing photos, etc., with him providing photos of some "wide-stripe" tesseras that looked confusing enough to be either striped, tessera, or striped tessera.

What I'm wondering is if tessera, though dominant, isn't someway somehow linked to motley/stripe. If I remember history right, the tough part is that the tesseras arose from a striped okeetee project?!

And some for what it's worth....Miami motley pinstripes from Nanci, whom my wife thought were more tesseras!

First.......Thanks so much for your post.

Was there a possibility that the Tessera you got from Don (that was labled het MOTLEY) could have been produced by a Motley parent that was unknown het stripe.........which would have made your Tessera 100% het Motley and unknowingly 50% ph Stripe???

Maybe this is the case and just hatching 3 eggs, not being enough for the Motley trait to manifest.:shrugs:

Something else I remember reading somewhere (in a discussion about telling the difference between Stripe & Tessera Stripe) is that a Striped Tessera will display the striping going all the way to the tip of the tail vs. on a Stripe, the stripping usually always stops right at the vent and does not go onto the tail.............which Ironically, is seen on your Miami you have pictured, but not on the Butter Stripe.

Also, I believe you are correct on the Tessera coming to be, from a Striped Okeetee project.

I would just love to be able to figure out how we can visually 100% with no doubt tell the difference between Motley & Stripe Tesseras.

......then again just producing Tesseras would elminate the problem of miss-labeling Motley & Stripe Tesseras...........LOL

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
But isnt it also that the striped of the tessera stripeds starts behind the head while the striped of the stripe corns starts right from the head?
 
But isnt it also that the striped of the tessera stripeds starts behind the head while the striped of the stripe corns starts right from the head?

??? :shrugs::shrugs:........News to me !!
If that is the case then could that be a diffinitive way to tell the two (Motley & Stripe Tessera) apart???

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Mhhhhh no. Our animals just look the same.... but striped brings normally a different headpattern right? Tessera striped normally not from what we posted. Ans the beginning of the striped at a normal striped corn seems different then from a tessera striped. Or what you think?
 
First.......Thanks so much for your post.

Was there a possibility that the Tessera you got from Don (that was labled het MOTLEY) could have been produced by a Motley parent that was unknown het stripe.........which would have made your Tessera 100% het Motley and unknowingly 50% ph Stripe???

Maybe this is the case and just hatching 3 eggs, not being enough for the Motley trait to manifest. :shrugs:

Anytime Walter...genetics fascinates me and I have a decent understanding of the motley/stripe dynamics thanks to years of working with leopard geckos, where jungle patterning is dominant over stripe, and in my test breeding both have a recessive mode of inheritance. Couple this with my wife, a microbiologist whom also shares a fascination with genetics, and I hope to iron some details out.

That said, I do think that could be the case! TYPICALLY, in my experience, Don is very good about labeling his deli cups with numbers that allow him to correlate back to parents/lineage genetics at shows. This particular snake didn't have that though....and by no means am I faulting Don here. I plan to re-pair the 2 this season is hopes of a butter tessera or butter stripe tessera. My only motley critters are the Miamis I posted and a motley stripe snow. I won't be pairing any of those to my male as they age. I'm actually taking a break from packing as I recently accepted a job in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area, and with that in mind I hope to snag some sort of breedable motley female from Don at the Feb NARBC Arlington, TX show to test the Flicker's (my tessera male in question) motley genetics. Unfortunately I'm small-scale enough at this time that I won't be able to do the "I'm-Steve-Roylance-and-have-approx.-3700-model-year-2014-corn-snake-eggs-with-some-being-overpriced-EROs" thing and have a huge sample set (HI STEVE! LMAO!!). Plus I like other herps, like my chondros, Mexican hognose, and a few other critters that I'll probably never be wholly corns.

Something else I remember reading somewhere (in a discussion about telling the difference between Stripe & Tessera Stripe) is that a Striped Tessera will display the striping going all the way to the tip of the tail vs. on a Stripe, the stripping usually always stops right at the vent and does not go onto the tail.............which Ironically, is seen on your Miami you have pictured, but not on the Butter Stripe.

That's the problem with the butter stripe I pictured. He has VERY faint striping after the vent that doesn't seem to pick up yet in photos. You can see the post-vent blotch though. The one marker I though was a given was how narrow the central stripe (which is an incidental stripe as it's simply the background color of the snake and not actual "deformed" blotched patterning that has now formed into a stripe) was on Tessera-anything.

Through the hundreds of photos online and having only 5 actual tesseras in possession, it seemed that the background stripe is traditionally only 2 scales wide (1 whole scale and then a half-scale left and right of the central whole scale). Unfortunately I had my main harddrive on this computer fail in early October and I lost my e-mails between Don and myself about this very topic. Included in those emails were photos Don sent me of some tesseras he was 100% certain of, that had a wider central background stripe.

Also, I believe you are correct on the Tessera coming to be, from a Striped Okeetee project.

I would just love to be able to figure out how we can visually 100% with no doubt tell the difference between Motley & Stripe Tesseras.

......then again just producing Tesseras would elminate the problem of miss-labeling Motley & Stripe Tesseras...........LOL

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

I think that's what Don's site says, plus what he'd told me in person at the 2013 Feb NARBC show.

We WILL figure out this, and to me it seems the cornsnake community is a LOT more tightly knit these days than they were in past years (mid-late 90s). I think we, as a community, will collaboratively be able to figure this fun mess out. :noevil:
 
Mhhhhh no. Our animals just look the same.... but striped brings normally a different headpattern right? Tessera striped normally not from what we posted. Ans the beginning of the striped at a normal striped corn seems different then from a tessera striped. Or what you think?

Yeah, I see what you mean. I just went back and looked at ALL the pics. posted and they all show that the stripping comes FROM the head and does not start behind the head................well, I guess that is ruled out.:shrugs:

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
But isnt it also that the striped of the tessera stripeds starts behind the head while the striped of the stripe corns starts right from the head?

??? :shrugs::shrugs:........News to me !!
If that is the case then could that be a diffinitive way to tell the two (Motley & Stripe Tessera) apart???

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

This herein lays the problem I have with my butter stripe! His striping does not "rabbit ear" but actually is fully connected. The "deformed" blotching that is now formed into the body stripe pattern connects fully to the base of his spearpoint marking on his head. :awcrap:
 
Yeah, I see what you mean. I just went back and looked at ALL the pics. posted and they all show that the stripping comes FROM the head and does not start behind the head................well, I guess that is ruled out.:shrugs:

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Even more corn-fusing is when the stripe on a tessera is "complete" as shown in the photo of Vegeta/Goku/Gohan/Trunks/Goten/Bardock's (aka the Saiyajin) Anery Tessera MOTLEY*Striped, where the head's spearpoint marking is the full starting point of the "normal" tessera striping. Most tesseras I've seen personally or photographically have what I call a half-spearpoint marking central on the head what closes off, forming a connected motley-blotch, that then closes off, and THEN the tessera striping starts. (see the 3 tesseras from your very first post).
 
That said, I do think that could be the case! TYPICALLY, in my experience, Don is very good about labeling his deli cups with numbers that allow him to correlate back to parents/lineage genetics at shows. This particular snake didn't have that though....and by no means am I faulting Don here. I plan to re-pair the 2 this season is hopes of a butter tessera or butter stripe tessera. My only motley critters are the Miamis I posted and a motley stripe snow. I won't be pairing any of those to my male as they age. I'm actually taking a break from packing as I recently accepted a job in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area, and with that in mind I hope to snag some sort of breedable motley female from Don at the Feb NARBC Arlington, TX show to test the Flicker's (my tessera male in question) motley genetics. Unfortunately I'm small-scale enough at this time that I won't be able to do the "I'm-Steve-Roylance-and-have-approx.-3700-model-year-2014-corn-snake-eggs-with-some-being-overpriced-EROs" thing and have a huge sample set (HI STEVE! LMAO!!). Plus I like other herps, like my chondros, Mexican hognose, and a few other critters that I'll probably never be wholly corns.



Through the hundreds of photos online and having only 5 actual tesseras in possession, it seemed that the background stripe is traditionally only 2 scales wide (1 whole scale and then a half-scale left and right of the central whole scale). Unfortunately I had my main harddrive on this computer fail in early October and I lost my e-mails between Don and myself about this very topic. Included in those emails were photos Don sent me of some tesseras he was 100% certain of, that had a wider central background stripe.



We WILL figure out this, and to me it seems the cornsnake community is a LOT more tightly knit these days than they were in past years (mid-late 90s). I think we, as a community, will collaboratively be able to figure this fun mess out. :noevil:

I know what you mean. I actually adopted Don's way of IDing.......it's very good and can go on forever.....very easy to use.
That would be VERY good if you can find a female to test your male for the Motley trait. It would defiantly give you more answers on him.

LOL.... :roflmao::roflmao:We Love Ya Steve !!

Gottcha, so there is the possibilty the width of the stripping can play a role ??


I'm sure we will as well, just seems we are missing something and it's probably very evidant and well are not seeing it

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
what about bellys? something spezial? Actually tessera does a lot of cool stuff with the checkers but I am really ashamed I dont have in my head, if all of my striping tessis have a clean white belly.
 
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