• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Snow Beast Corn?

backafter30

New member
I have an adult female Leucistic Black Rat snake. She is so beautiful, I am eager to get offspring from her, but my male is just a little guy, and she is more likely to eat him. Then I realized that I had an adult male Whiteout Corn. I know many people are against hybrids, especially if they aren't labeled as such. Does anyone have an idea what the offspring would be like? I would expect all white, as both parents are genetically colorless, but not sure whether to expect black or pink eyes, traces of pattern, or what? Would these offspring have a market, and what would one expect them to sell for? I haven't paired them yet. Just thinking about it... Thanks for your opinions.
 
You get normal coloured hybrid hatchlings from that crossing.

All hatchlings will carriers of leucistic ratsnake gen and corn amel, charcoal and diffused genes, but in just a single copy from just one parent, making every hatchling normal coloured.
 
Thanks Niklas! If that is the case, then I definitely would not bother making the cross. I was just figuring that neither parent had genes for normal coloration, being homozygous for their colorless condition. I see your point in that all offspring will only be het for leucistic, and het for Whiteout, (homozygous for nothing, really) but since those are the only genes available, where will the information for a normal pattern/colors come from? I could certainly be wrong about white hatchlings, that's why I asked, but I don't see normal colors popping up spontaneously without the genes coding for them. I would love some additional opinions, as this does not fit into your average genetics question.
 
Its still there, just under the surface... So if you pair with another snake that does not have the same genetics they become normal.. Example if I pair my male opal with my female lavender I will get lavenders, but if I pair my opal female with my butter male all of the babies will be normal het opal/butter motley in this case... HOWEVER I have a female amel who's het opal, if I mate her with my opal I will most likely get opals/normals/lavenders motley combo.. but the original gene is always there in the bottom...

I put my combo into corncalc this would be the outcome:
1 / 4 Lavender het Amel, Hypo
1 / 4 Normal het Lavender, Amel, Hypo
1 / 4 Hypo het Lavender, Amel
1 / 4 Hypo Lavender ( Hypo, Lavender ) het Amel

(hypo lavender is opals)

So even when the matching gens are there, there is still a chance for normals.
you would have to breed the parents, and then breed the babies to see what happens..
 
I appreciate the replies, but maybe I just don't understand genetics as well as I thought. I still don't understand where the normal genes are located. The female is homozygous for leucistic. She doesn't have the genes responsible for melanin, xanthin, or erythrin in scales, but does have normal, dominant eye color. My male is homozygous for amel, charcoal, and diffusion (although that last one involves more than one gene). He does not possess genes for pigment. If these dominant, normal genes were present anywhere, they would be expressed. All offspring should, in my understanding, possess only genes that each parent has, and in this case these genes may not even line up or be at the same locus as one another. So rather than being white because they're homozygous or heterozygous for something, they will be white because they simply possess no genes that code for color, except the eyes, which are dominantly dark over the recessive amel pink eyes. Then again, we are talking two different species, so normal punnett squares may not apply.

On another note, I am considering the implications of introducing a potentially confusing hybrid into the marketplace. I wouldn't want someone else to attempt to sell them as leucistic corns (if they actually did turn out white), or as anything other than what they were, hybrids. I would think that breeding the young together would produce such a mish-mash of rat/corn genes as to totally and permanently confuse the issue, so I am reconsidering the pairing altogether. Still, an interesting genetics question...
 
The normal genes are located in the snake that doesn't have the pattern or color mutation.

At the location of the leucistic gene, the corn snake has normal genes. At the location for amel the rat snake has normal genes. At the location for charcoal, the rat snake has normal genes. At the location for diffused, the rat snake has normal genes.

So at each of these genetic locations, they'll have one normal gene, and one mutation, but as the mutations are recessive, the normal gene is the only gene expressed.
 
I appreciate the replies, but maybe I just don't understand genetics as well as I thought. I still don't understand where the normal genes are located. The female is homozygous for leucistic. She doesn't have the genes responsible for melanin, xanthin, or erythrin in scales, but does have normal, dominant eye color. My male is homozygous for amel, charcoal, and diffusion (although that last one involves more than one gene). He does not possess genes for pigment. If these dominant, normal genes were present anywhere, they would be expressed. All offspring should, in my understanding, possess only genes that each parent has, and in this case these genes may not even line up or be at the same locus as one another. So rather than being white because they're homozygous or heterozygous for something, they will be white because they simply possess no genes that code for color, except the eyes, which are dominantly dark over the recessive amel pink eyes. Then again, we are talking two different species, so normal punnett squares may not apply.

Even though they are different species a punnet square is ok in this case because they probably share almost all loci.

Leucism is usually not caused by lacking the ability to make pigments per se. Its caused by an inability to make the pigment cells or impaired ability of those cells to migrate from the neural crest during development. That is why leucistics have normal eyes, because the pigment cells in the eyes form separately and don't have to migrate a long distance to their final location like the pigment cells in the skin do. So say the genotype of your leucistic rat is ll (leucism in black rat is actually incomplete dominant as you can tell which offspring are heterozygous, but the hets wind up looking normal as adults, so I'm going to treat it like a recessive to make things easier) Albinism is caused by inability to make melanin and is recessive, charcoal is recessive, and so is diffused. Your black rat is wt at those loci so the total genotype is AA, CC, DD, ll (capital letters denote the allele that is dominant, which is the wt allele for each of these genes).

Your corn snake is wild type at the locus where the leucistic mutation is in your rat snake, but is homozygous for the recessive mutant alleles at the charcoal, amel, and diffused loci. So his genotype is LL, aa, cc, dd.

Mating them will yield babies who are all Ll, Aa, Cc, and Dd. As you can see, each baby has one normal allele for each of the 4 genes involved. Even if the loci don't "line up" ie, are at different chromosomal locations in the two species, it won't matter, since the hybrid babies will have one copy of each chromosome from the corn and one of each from the rat. Regardless of where the normal alleles are chromosomally, those normal alleles will produce the normal protein which will be enough to make the snakes look normal (although they will be hybrids).

The reason recessive alleles are, well, recessive, is because usually they result from a mutation that totally inactivates a gene or causes the protein product of that gene to be nonfunctional. But since snakes have two copies of every gene, if one normal allele is present, it makes the functional product which is enough for the animal to look normal. For example, the amel mutation causes that allele to not produce a functional product. An animal that is het for amel is only able to produce 50% of the normal gene product compared to a snake that is homozygous for the normal allele, but that is enough to get the job done so the het animals look normal.

Does that help?
 
It does! Thanks! I think I'll just wait till my male leucistic black rat is old enough to breed. That way I know what I'll have. I cant imagine a market for the normal colored young hybrids you describe, or the benefit of producing them.
 
Back
Top