• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

2015 Breeding Season

Topaz het Motley x Caramel het Lava Motley

Target: Topaz Motley

As you can see, this male is Border-less. It comes from his Motley side. I personally like Topaz Okeetees better, but both can have their appeal.

Is there a locality of Corns, described by Herpetologist, that use the word border-less in their descriptions of the locality. I don't know, but I think most Corn Localities have borders don't they, at least some?
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0020.JPG
    DSC_0020.JPG
    180.4 KB · Views: 129
Magma ph Charcoal x Lava ph Pewter

Target: Diamond Bloodreds, I wish!

I bred a group of 1.2 het Lava Pewters for years and never produced a single Diamond. Everything else I could produce from the project, but not one of them.

I saved some ph's back like these two. Maybe, just maybe one Diamond this year.
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0021.JPG
    DSC_0021.JPG
    173.9 KB · Views: 127
Caramel Lava Lavender het Bloodred x Het PS Lava Lavender

Target: Out Crossed Lava Plasmas het PS Caramel
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0029.JPG
    DSC_0029.JPG
    138.4 KB · Views: 128
Lava Motley het Striped Snow X Anery Motley het Lava Amel

Target: Lava Motleys and Ice Motleys
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0013.JPG
    DSC_0013.JPG
    197.6 KB · Views: 126
Target: Diamond Bloodreds, I wish!

I bred a group of 1.2 het Lava Pewters for years and never produced a single Diamond. Everything else I could produce from the project, but not one of them.

I saved some ph's back like these two. Maybe, just maybe one Diamond this year.

I have had a similar experience. I have 2.4 Het Lava Pewters and have bred them 4 years in a row (some even double clutched) and still have not hit the target!! Diamond!

I even held back some Poss Hets and bred them and still didn't hit a Diamond lol!
 
Maybe there's something developmentally unsound about the two genes together. I realize that diamonds exist, but maybe some lines just lead to non fertilized eggs or slugs if the two genes exist together in homozygote form. Just a thought.
 
Sometimes when people get results like that, it makes me wonder if any of the corn snake mutations are "linked," a term describing two loci that are close together on the same chromosome. When this is the case, the alleles at those two loci are no longer inherited independently of each other, which has implications when you are trying to make a double homozygous animal.

For example, say you crossed a lava (vvCC) and a charcoal (VVcc) to make het lava het charcoals (VvCc). If the lava and charcoal loci are on the same chromosome, in the het offspring one member of the chromosome pair has the V and c alleles (inherited from the charcoal parent), and the other chromosome has the v and C alleles (inherited from the lava parent). Normally, you would expect these hets to be able to make Vc, VC, vC, and vc sperm/eggs, but linkage would prevent this, because the v allele is stuck on the chromosome with the C allele, and the V allele is stuck on the chromosome with the c allele, so when the members of the chromosome pair separate and go their separate ways into the gametes, v and C (or V and c) get dragged together into the same egg/sperm. So only two types of egg/sperm are produced, vC and Vc, making it impossible to produce diamonds, as no gamete carries both lava and charcoal mutations simultaneously.

The reason it wouldn't be impossible in reality is this: During egg/sperm formation, members of a chromosome pair line up and exchange segments of genetic material with each other, mixing up the allelic arrangements on those chromosomes in a process called crossing over. If an exchange happens between the lava and charcoal loci in the het lava charcoal animals described above, you would be able to produce VC and vc gametes (these gametes are called recombinant because their allelic arrangement is different from the original arrangement of Vc or vC in the parental chromosomes). However, the closer two loci are on the same chromosome, the less likely it is that a crossover event happens between them. If they are really far apart, a crossover happens at the maximum rate of 50%, generating results that are indistinguishable from independent assortment. If they are really close together, recombination is very infrequent. Whether lava and charcoal are linked is just speculation but accurate and detailed clutch data could disprove it.

If the linkage were very tight you would expect this result:
If you breed a charcoal to a lava to produce double hets, and cross these double hets to each other, you would get 1/4 lavas NOT het charcoal (inherited a vC chromosome from both parents), 1/4 charcoals NOT het lava (inherited a Vc chromosome from both parents), and 1/2 het diamonds (received a Vc from one parent and a vC from the other). Some types of normals (VVCC, VvCC, VVCc) and diamonds (vvcc) would be rare, as would charcoals het lava (Vvcc) and lavas het charcoal (vvCc), because those would require the inheritance of one or two recombinant chromosomes (vc or VC). Is this anyone's experience?

To see how I got that result, when genes are tightly linked you can kind of treat them as the same locus on a Punnett square. The gametes produced by the double het animals would be either mutant for lava and wt for charcoal, or wt for lava and mutant for charcoal. So either Vc or vC. Here is the square, treating the charcoal and lava loci as a unit:

____Vc__vC
Vc| VVcc VvCc
vC| VvCc vvCC

So only 3 genotypic/phenotypic classes.
VVcc=charcoal, not het lava
vvCC=lava, not het charcoal
VvCc=normal, het lava het charcoal.

This assumes perfect linkage, so even if the loci are linked, deviations from this result are normal. But this result is very different from what you would expect from independent assortment (the way we normally calculate the result of crosses involving more than one locus). Offspring deviating from the above square had to have inherited a recombinant chromosome, allowing us to calculate the "recombination frequency" between lava and charcoal. In a normal cross that involves 2 loci assumed to be on different chromosomes, the recombination frequency is 50% (you can prove this by comparing the results from a normal Punnett square to the one above), so frequencies between 0 (loci are really close together) and 50% (loci are really far apart or on different chromosomes) are suggestive of linkage.

There is a somewhat hilarious implication of this. If lava and charcoal were actually linked, if you did hit a diamond in the above cross, you might be tempted to mate it with its charcoal or lava littermates to produce more diamonds. But the Punnett square above should caution you against that! You'd have much better luck crossing the diamond to its normal siblings or one of the parents, although producing more diamonds would still rely on recombination happening in the gametes of the normals het lava charcoal.

However, all offspring of your diamond will automatically inherit a chromosome with the vc arrangement (since the diamond has two vc chromosomes, which is why it's vvcc). Thus, those offspring can easily produce vc gametes without recombination, allowing you to easily produce more diamonds when you mate a diamond to its offspring. If your pairing was diamond x homozygous wt, the offspring will be VvCc, but one of their chromosomes will be vc and the other will be VC. Thus, assuming tight linkage, roughly half their gametes will carry the vc chromosomes and half will cary VC. So your odds of getting more diamonds when you cross the diamond to its het diamond offspring should be closer to 1/2 than to the 1/4 you would normally predict!

Sorry for the long post, sometimes a simple concept leads you down several roads.
 
Last edited:
Sometimes when people get results like that, it makes me wonder if any of the corn snake mutations are "linked," a term describing two loci that are close together on the same chromosome. When this is the case, the alleles at those two loci are no longer inherited independently of each other, which has implications when you are trying to make a double homozygous animal.

Very Interesting. I was hoping you'd chime in on this one.

It does appear so far that my Lava and Charcoal hold backs from this projects are NOT Het for each other. I'm breeding some more this year from this project so we'll see what happens in a couple months when babies hatch.

Thanks for the info!
 
Ahh, my kind of geekiness. :cheers:

So your odds of getting more diamonds when you cross the diamond to its het diamond offspring should be closer to 1/2 than to the 1/4 you would normally predict!

Sean Niland had a linked trait in leopard geckos that performed exactly like this. (Afraid I can't remember which mutations.) No one else could seem to produce a double homozygote, but when he finally hit upon one, he bred it back to a parent and ended up with a line that produced twice as many as expected.

A question, though . . . Does the proximity of traits along the strand typically follow what we might think of as a "rational" arrangement? Meaning, since charcoal is an anerythristic trait and lava is hypomelanistic, would they sit farther from each other than--say--charcoal and anery? Or is there no rhyme or reason (at least as we might conceive of it), except in cases of same-allele mutations? Hope that made sense.

Sorry, Joe, for hijacking your thread. Keep the pictures coming! :)
 
A question, though . . . Does the proximity of traits along the strand typically follow what we might think of as a "rational" arrangement? Meaning, since charcoal is an anerythristic trait and lava is hypomelanistic, would they sit farther from each other than--say--charcoal and anery? Or is there no rhyme or reason (at least as we might conceive of it), except in cases of same-allele mutations? Hope that made sense.

In eukaryotes (everything except bacteria) the answer is generally no, genes are not clustered together based on their function. There are some exceptions. So there would be no reason to expect the anery and charcoal loci to be near each other, and same for loci like hypo and lava.

In bacteria, sometimes genes that function together in the same process are clustered together in units called operons. When their protein products are needed, the genes get transcribed together into a single messenger RNA that encodes multiple proteins. This allows bacteria to quickly and simultaneously produce multiple different proteins that function together in a process, and to turn them off together when they are no longer needed.
 
Interesting . . . and thanks!

That makes me wonder, then, how many seemingly unrelated aspects of a corn's makeup (including everything from egg size to temperament) might actually be linked, and responsible for originating such stereotypes as "all Sunkissed corns are mean," or "Lavas have poor fertility"--things that were commonly experienced when the mutations first appeared, but less so now. Perhaps once a few crossovers occurred and broke such links, outcrossing has continued the process . . .?

Just a thought.
 
Sunkissed Anery het Striped x Striped Blue

Target: New Project, Striped Anery het Dilute Sunkissed

Long term target: Sunkissed Striped Blues
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0018.JPG
    DSC_0018.JPG
    163.5 KB · Views: 86
Normal het Striped Sunkissed Lava Butter x Same

Target: Sunkissed Striped Topaz
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0043.JPG
    DSC_0043.JPG
    190.4 KB · Views: 86
Tessera het Sunkissed PS x Het Sunkissed Granite

Target: Tessera, Tessera Sunkissed, Tessera Sunkissed Bloodred
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0017.JPG
    DSC_0017.JPG
    197.5 KB · Views: 86
6-9 was a busy day

Tessera Ghost het PS x Hypo PS het Anery

Target: Tessera Ghost PS, Tessera Hypo PS, Tessera Hypo, Tessera Ghost
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0020.JPG
    DSC_0020.JPG
    218.9 KB · Views: 87
RedCoat Motley het Striped Snow Lavender x Lavender Motley ph Anery Caramel

Target: Lavender Motleys het RC and possibly more.
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0018.JPG
    DSC_0018.JPG
    217.7 KB · Views: 86
Sunkissed Pied-Sided x Het STARGAZER

Target: Prove Sunkissed PS is Gazer FREE, before breeding into my colony.

I have been testing ALL of my Sunkissed lines for years now and only work with Stargazer Free lines. When I add a Sunkissed to my colony, such as this very nice Sunkissed PS produced by Walt S, I test them for Stargazer, BEFORE, breeding them into my colony.

This male was bred to two female het Stargazers this year. If enough eggs are hatched, I will know if he carries the Stargazer gene or not, and it will be recorded in the ACR.
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0019.JPG
    DSC_0019.JPG
    182.5 KB · Views: 83
RedCoat Sunkissed Lava x het Sunkissed Topaz

Target: Out Crossed Sunkissed Lavas.
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0021.JPG
    DSC_0021.JPG
    188.5 KB · Views: 83
Back
Top