Help planning a Stripe Miami project

[h0mersimps0n]

I have a 1.1 Miami pair and a male normal stripe.

How would I cross/how many generations would I need to get miami stripes that didn't look like normal stripes?

Does the male miami even have a role in any of this? The female miami has all the traits I'm most interested in.

Thanks

 

[Jay@PJCReptiles]

If you breed the Normal Stripe to the Miami het Stripe female your clutch should be half Normals het Stripe and Normal Stripes. Now, using a Miami from the get go you should have some in this clutch that have Miami characteristics though this is no guarantee as Miami is a locality or a "phase" and not an inheritable trait. This is where line breeding comes into play. After you get the babies in the first clutch, F1's, take the best looking couple of babies and raise them up and breed them to each other or back to the 1.1 Miami het Stripe pair. By doing so you can start to "fine tune" this line in the F2's and F3's.
That being said. I wouldn't see a problem just Breeding the Miami het Stripe pair to each other and the outcome should be the same as the first breedings I suggested but you should have a better chance in getting "Miami" looking babies in the first clutch. If you choose this route you have the benefit of using your Normal Stripe to outcross this line by using him to add "new blood" into this line as well. Depends on how much time and effort you want to put into this project.
All that being said, I guess it comes down to what route you choose to take. I think either way would be fine and I would probably choose the later but then again, these are your snakes and your project. Hope this helps.
Jay

 

[StrangeCargo]

Contact Don of South Mountain reptiles. He has a line of Motley Miami Corns that kick butt... I think the easiest way would be to breed a pair of these together (get a few of those striped motleys that resemble striped corns)... Or try to find a striped candycane corn to breed into your miami's... It's my understanding that miami's were used in the developement of the Candy Canes... The background colors should match up alot closer than just using a regular striped... It'll probably take you a few generations BUT might turn out nice.

Good luck.

 

[abell82]

Now, using a Miami from the get go you should have some in this clutch that have Miami characteristics though this is no guarantee as Miami is a locality or a "phase" and not an inheritable trait.

How is Miami "phase" NOT an inheritable trait? I believe that this is an incorrect statement.

 

[diamondlil]

How is Miami "phase" NOT an inheritable trait? I believe that this is an incorrect statement.

It's a line-bred or selective look, so not as predictable in inheritance as a single recessive genetic trait.

 

[KJUN]

How is Miami "phase" NOT an inheritable trait? I believe that this is an incorrect statement.

It is inheritable in a non-Mendelian fashion. I believe the other poster meant that is is not a Mendelian trait.

Anyway, it is VERY difficult to obtain the original Miami look in a striped or motley once it it out-crossed. I would say you are looking at atleast 2 backcrosses to Miami's before you are reliably producing "striped Miami" phase corns with the looks of a good Miami. 12 years? Sounds about right.

You might luck into getting a decent looking one (which you couldn't IS as a baby!) in one cross, but that doesn't mean you would be reliably getting them.

...and there is a good chance you would never see one that looked like a Miami, anyway. I suspect that they would look more like a striped crimson than a striped Miami due to the hypomelanistic-like effect of the striped mutation. Don Soderberg has some that I think have potential for that look, too. I don't remember if they are striped or motley corns, though.

NOW, we CAN and Do have motley and striped-motley Miami phase corns. Son seems to have the best, and I'm raising up some of his from that bloodline now. I'm excited since I waited years to be able to get the best he produced last year. If you want a striped LOOKING Miami phase cornsnake, call him about his striped motley corns....and breed it to your Miami's if you want to outcross them further.

 

[Jay@PJCReptiles]

How is Miami "phase" NOT an inheritable trait? I believe that this is an incorrect statement.

It is my understanding that "Miami" is not a recessive trait. Just because you breed a Miami to whatever there is no guarantee that you will get Miami's in the clutch. Even if you breed a Miami to a Miami there is no way to guarantee this as well. Yes the possibility is there and you should/could get some Miami looking snakes, yet there is no guarantee that you will get one. Miami IS NOT a recessive trait like Amel, Anery, etc that can be and is a predictable trait. If I breed an Amel to another snake that is het Amel, I can guarantee you that I will get at least one Amel. Whereas this same prediction can not be guaranteed when combining Miami's as it is not a recessive Mendelian genetic trait. A Cornsnake CAN NOT be het for Miami. Thanks KJUN for allowing me to reiterate.
Jay

 

[abell82]

It's a line-bred or selective look, so not as predictable in inheritance as a single recessive genetic trait.

Miami "phase" is a Natural or wild type coloration. So Again an incorrect statement.

It is inheritable in a non-Mendelian fashion. I believe the other poster meant that is is not a Mendelian trait.

Anyway, it is VERY difficult to obtain the original Miami look in a striped or motley once it it out-crossed. I would say you are looking at atleast 2 backcrosses to Miami's before you are reliably producing "striped Miami" phase corns with the looks of a good Miami. 12 years? Sounds about right.

If it is a trait that is TRULY not inheritable in a Mendelian fashion then "back crossing" to a Miami "phase" would not increase your chances of any off-spring looking Miami "phase" . So again I say these are incorrect statements.

Miami "phase" is an inheritable trait, in Mendelian fashion.

It is my understanding that "Miami" is not a recessive trait. Just because you breed a Miami to whatever there is no guarantee that you will get Miami's in the clutch. Even if you breed a Miami to a Miami there is no way to guarantee this as well. Yes the possibility is there and you should/could get some Miami looking snakes, yet there is no guarantee that you will get one. Miami IS NOT a recessive trait like Amel, Anery, etc that can be and is a predictable trait. If I breed an Amel to another snake that is het Amel, I can guarantee you that I will get at least one Amel. Whereas this same prediction can not be guaranteed when combining Miami's as it is not a recessive Mendelian genetic trait. A Cornsnake CAN NOT be het for Miami. Thanks KJUN for allowing me to reiterate.
Jay

Again not true. It is a recessive. It is an IN-DOMINANT recessive.

 

[Jay@PJCReptiles]

What does this mean? I have never heard of IN-DOMINANT.

......it is an IN-DOMINANT recessive.

If Miami is a true Mendelian recessive trait then why are there not distinguishable looking Miami Snow, Miami Anery, Miami Bloodred, Miami Lavender and so on and so on? If this were true then morph lines based on the Miami trait would/should be very different looking then Normal based type morphs and should be very identifiable from one another, would they not? I would like to see differences between an Amel that was produced by Miami parents and that of Normal Parents, or an Anery or a Snow. I am pretty sure if placed side-by-side they would look very similar and unless you knew what baby came from what parents there would be no way of telling the difference. I am sticking with my original opinion that Miami is not a guaranteed Mendelian recessive trait. I hope you can prove me wrong. Please show me the difference between a morph that was produced from Miami parents and one produced from Normal parents.
Jay

 

[KJUN]

abell82:

Not much is correct in your statement. Miami is a look that has been selectively bred in captivity....like tall dogs, or short dogs, or long dogs. That's it. The rest is, well, just completely wrong in your post....at least all the parts I currently remember reading!

KJ

 

[abell82]

What does this mean? I have never heard of IN-DOMINANT.

If Miami is a true Mendelian recessive trait then why are there not distinguishable looking Miami Snow, Miami Anery, Miami Bloodred, Miami Lavender and so on and so on? If this were true then morph lines based on the Miami trait would/should be very different looking then Normal based type morphs and should be very identifiable from one another, would they not? I would like to see differences between an Amel that was produced by Miami parents and that of Normal Parents, or an Anery or a Snow. I am pretty sure if placed side-by-side they would look very similar and unless you knew what baby came from what parents there would be no way of telling the difference. I am sticking with my original opinion that Miami is not a guaranteed Mendelian recessive trait. I hope you can prove me wrong. Please show me the difference between a morph that was produced from Miami parents and one produced from Normal parents.
Jay

Your right, it should read Miami is an Incomplete Dominant trait. As far as a corn from Miami "phase" looking different...
Crimson corns. A "different looking hypo as compared to "regular" Hypo's.
As far as amels, are concerned, I believe miami's are bred into amels, to help make Candy canes??

abell82:

Not much is correct in your statement. Miami is a look that has been selectively bred in captivity....like tall dogs, or short dogs, or long dogs. That's it. The rest is, well, just completely wrong in your post....at least all the parts I currently remember reading!

KJ

NO. Miami "PHASE", Is a selectively bred "look" that has been bred in captivity.

And if you truly believe what you are saying, why do you even waste your time breeding Kisatchie corns?
What would an Amel Kisatchie look like?
What will happens when a Kistachie is out crossed to a "normal" red rat corn snake? Same thing I would imagine. 1 st clutch lots of Normal red rat looking babies....etc and so on.

 

[KJUN]

And if you truly believe what you are saying, why do you even waste your time breeding Kisatchie corns?

You are all over the map, and still seemingly incorrect. Kisatchie cornsnakes are another species (or subspecies if you follow UT research). That's like asking why I breed Bullsnakes or Super Dwarf Retics. They are DIFFERENT animals.

What would an Amel Kisatchie look like?

Until one is caught, how would I know?

What will happens when a Kistachie is out crossed to a "normal" red rat corn snake? Same thing I would imagine. 1 st clutch lots of Normal red rat looking babies....etc and so on.

First, you are so wrong on your assumption that I won't even bother to correct you. Second, why should I care about hybrids. I have no intention of ever trying to sell any Kisatchie hybrids. I don't plan to ever try to make a penny off of crossing a cornsnake morph into a Kisatchie or a Kisatchie into a cornsnake.

 

[starsevol]

Funny, out of alllll the genetic calculators I have looked at, I have never ever seen "miami" listed as a recessive trait.
Coincidence??
I think not!!

 

[abell82]

Kjun, Instead of hijacking someone elses thread, let's continue this Via PM or start our own thread.

To h0mersimps0n : The simple answer is Many generations would be needed to start a striped Miami "phase from scratch.

 

[Ssthisto]

Your right, it should read Miami is a Recessive trait. As far as a corn from Miami "phase" looking different...
Crimson corns. A "different looking hypo as compared to "regular" Hypo's.
As far as amels, are concerned, I believe miami's are bred into amels, to help make Candy canes??

If "Miami" was a Mendelian recessive trait, it would be possible to:

Breed a visual Miami to any other corn snake for 100% "normal" offspring who are het for "Miami".
Then these "het Miami" animals could be bred together to get an average of one quarter visual Miami offspring.

In all practical terms I do not believe it works this way; therefore it is not likely that "Miami" is a recessive trait. It is a polygenic trait that is affected by multiple genes. Some of those traits might match up in the second generation, but you can't guarantee that 1 in 16 of the "grandchildren" of a picture-perfect steel-grey and deep lipstick-red Miami crossed to a normal stripe will be perfect steel-grey and lipstick-red Miami Stripes. You're much more likely to get a range of stripes with tannish backgrounds; that's a step closer to Miami Stripe but it isn't quite there.

Same goes for Crimsons - I've seen some animals marketed as "crimsons" because they were out of a Miami het hypo or a Crimson crossed to a hypo... but some of them are quite obviously just hypos.

What I would do is cross a normal stripe male with as weak an orange background colour as possible into the best quality Miami females I could find. I'd then keep the offspring that had the least orange in their background colour and cross them to produce striped offspring. I'd keep, say, two striped males with the least orange in the background, and breed THEM into the original Miami females (saves you waiting for their siblings to grow up). Yeah, you've got another round of het-stripes there, but you should be seeing some of those looking more Miami-ish. Keep the best of those, breed them out, and repeat until you've got a stripe you're happy with

 

[diamondlil]

Miami "phase" is a Natural or wild type coloration. So Again an incorrect statement.




If it is a trait that is TRULY not inheritable in a Mendelian fashion then "back crossing" to a Miami "phase" would not increase your chances of any off-spring looking Miami "phase" . So again I say these are incorrect statements.

Miami "phase" is an inheritable trait, in Mendelian fashion.



Again not true. It is a recessive. It is an IN-DOMINANT recessive.

Ok, I'll give you a more detailed answer. Miami phase is a line-bred look, refined by selective breeding of individuals that most closely match the type wanted. It's not inheritable in a mendelian fashion because it's polygenic, not caused by a single gene that can be easily reproduced like amelanism. To achieve miamis as spectacular as Carol Huddleston has at Low Belly Reptiles is a matter of carefully selecting the best individuals over generations.
You could not buy one of her 'a grade' miamis, breed to a normal, and then expect to retrieve the same look in any subsequent generations. But you could buy an amel, breed it to a normal, and get amels in subsequent generations.

 

[KJUN]

Kjun, Instead of hijacking someone elses thread, let's continue this Via PM or start our own thread.

To h0mersimps0n : The simple answer is Many generations would be needed to start a striped Miami "phase from scratch.

I don't have any desire to continue this. The OP asked about a Miami/striped project. You gave information that I do not believe fits the available data, so I (and others) spoke out against your conclusion. End of story. You brought up other species. I don't see how it was relevant, either.

The fact of the matter, OP, Miami is a line bread trait (like tallness in dogs). It is NOT simple recessive - like stripe - so it would take more than one generation to get a Miami Phase stripe unless you were REAL lucky....and it would take even more to get one that breeds true.

 

[carol]

I agree, unless you get very lucky you are looking at a 12 year project at bare minimum. Miamis are a pain in the a$$. Two perfect Miamis can make very substandard offsring, and even hatchlings that look amazing can turn on you. A lot of my holdbacks end up being sold at 18 months because they start to change. Then after all those years and work, no one wants to pay that much for a "normal". So it really is a labor of love, but to me, they are the most attractive corn out there. It's really a shame it's not a recessive trait.

 

[starsevol]

I don't know KJUN, but I get the impression that he has FORGOTTEN more about cornsnake genetics than most of us will ever know.

And when it comes to Miamis, Carol's word is the final word. I personally can't think of anyone who knows more about breeding the perfect Miamis than Carol.

Sorry Abell, you are just plain WRONG!
Carol has spoken!

 

[abell82]

Sorry Abell, you are just plain WRONG!

:laugh01: We shall see!

Rather than Hijack this thread any longer. You can poke fun at me here: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=604311#post604311 :nyah::nyah::nyah: