• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Interesting video.......

3. I don't have a problem with the cold hard facts as it were either.. I don't mean to say that you aren't emotional enough, maybe I still don't get what you were getting at with the "more people died in one year" part.
The ""typical"" argument against the war is that our American soldiers are dying. We've lost X number of soldiers over the past 3 years. "The death count is up to X soldiers in the past 2 months." So on, so forth.

No death is a "good" death, and I think that's an insulting way to argue against the war. I think it's a method that truly belittles their sacrifice in serving our country. Death happens every day, in every way, shape, and form. The reason for using "#'s of people in a year" is because I think using a soldier death count is insulting, so let's compare it to a "drunk driving death count" or a "teenage suicide death count" or a "child abuse death count" and see if we can't fix more than just one problem in the world. Because the reality of our world is that we don't just have soldiers fighting overseas, we have soldiers fighting overseas in the name of freedom from a country where people drive drunk and kill people, teens are killing themselves, and adults are murdering children in the name of anger. Compared to some of those additional evils, I'm even more proud of the soldiers and what they are trying to accomplish in a thank-less world. Let's face it. Iraqi's have a lot more choice in their world today than they ever did before . . . don't they?!

I was going to add more, but my answer may have already gone way off topic. :shrugs:
D80
 
The ""typical"" argument against the war is that our American soldiers are dying. We've lost X number of soldiers over the past 3 years. "The death count is up to X soldiers in the past 2 months." So on, so forth.

No death is a "good" death, and I think that's an insulting way to argue against the war. I think it's a method that truly belittles their sacrifice in serving our country. Death happens every day, in every way, shape, and form. The reason for using "#'s of people in a year" is because I think using a soldier death count is insulting, so let's compare it to a "drunk driving death count" or a "teenage suicide death count" or a "child abuse death count" and see if we can't fix more than just one problem in the world. Because the reality of our world is that we don't just have soldiers fighting overseas, we have soldiers fighting overseas in the name of freedom from a country where people drive drunk and kill people, teens are killing themselves, and adults are murdering children in the name of anger. Compared to some of those additional evils, I'm even more proud of the soldiers and what they are trying to accomplish in a thank-less world. Let's face it. Iraqi's have a lot more choice in their world today than they ever did before . . . don't they?!

I was going to add more, but my answer may have already gone way off topic. :shrugs:
D80

I see what you mean now. And I agree. How many soldiers die is not a good argument on it's own. But whose argument is that? The point is for what did they die? Is the mission worth the sacrifice?

We can look at cancer deaths too, but they aren't always so easily preventable as soldiers dying in Iraq. Simply put, we can bring them home. If there was such a simple step to stop cancer deaths, we'd do it surely. We already (as a nation) mostly agree that was the wrong war.

People always say, but what will happen if we go? Will they descend into civil war? Would that be our fault if they did? Why? For overthrowing a despot? Is it preferable that they should be a people in tyrrany, or a free people at war?

What foreign nation do we wish had invaded us during our civil war? Would that have complicated things or simplified them?
 
But whose argument is that? The point is for what did they die? Is the mission worth the sacrifice?
I don't know. :shrugs:

Simply put, we can bring them home. If there was such a simple step to stop cancer deaths, we'd do it surely. We already (as a nation) mostly agree that was the wrong war.

People always say, but what will happen if we go?

Just a friendly reminder . . . ;)
I would agree one hundred percent to bring every single service man and woman back to US soil and screw the rest of the world . . . but that wouldn't be right now either. ;) So, the "happy" medium is left to opinion, politics, and BS.

D80
 
The problem here is that it's more anti-Obama than pro-Mcain, which seems typical of the Mcain campaign. I read earlier about Obama's reverand and birth certificate, both of which are highly irrelivant. I watched a crazy video with Palin's pastor about armageddon, and using Alaska as the holy land for Cristians, and she attended that rant. But do I think that reflects her logic, hell no. And as far as his birth certificate, let's focus on the REAL ISSUES. To make Obama out to be unamerican, and a secret terrorist, is just racism and propaganda at it's worst. Let's question his policies, not his religion and patriotism.
Also these are two well qualified candidates, "bottom of the barrell" they are not. I choose to support Obama because I feel he will lead our country better than Mcain, but I am thrilled that it's Mcain and not Mitt Romney or Rudy Gulliani as the republican nominee.
This is a pointless debate and prosperity can't be measured by the success or failure of the president. There's a division about war, presidential candidates, racism, sexism, classism, etc.. And we need to remember that with our freedom comes tremendous responsibility. We are responsible to respect eachother, regardless of our differences. We are responsible to raise awareness about all issues, not just political views. Just as Drisst mentioned, we are still plagued by drunk driving, child abuse, a failing education system, etc.. And to put all of our chips in to defend one man is ridiculous, even if he was Jesus. No one person can change the world, and only we can change the way we think about, and treat one another.
I think Obama will make an excellent leader, and the video posted was just a devisive attempt to create fear. Fear predicated on our ignorance as a society, and the "conspiracy theories" that draw attention away from the problems that really affect us. I read some whole long post about Obama being the anti-christ, and how nostradaumus predicted it. If anybody wants their opinions to be respected give facts, not BS propaganda. Compare economic plans between the candidates, education plans, environmental plans, energy plans. Don't create these comic book armageddon theories about Obama or Mcain.
At the end of the day we all want is freedom, food on the table, clothes on our back, time to spend with family and friends, and peace. And to think that we are doing justice by bad mouthing eachother, as though we're fighting evil, is just ridiculous. No more slander, let's just compare facts, and share our hope for the future.
 
Good point Michael about the propaganda.. You know my Dad got an email this morning about the marriage issue. It's an anonymous email telling people that if homosexuals can marry, than they will be able to sue his church forcing them to perform the ceremony. He's quite concerned about that and I think that's understandable as that would be a clear infringement on his religious freedoms. The email made two outrageous claims further..
1. That this has already been done in Mass.
2. That a San Francisco Principal gave permission to a teacher to take her entire class to see her wedding (to another woman). Oh, without the parental permission.

To me it's clear that this is garbage fear tactics. I searched the net and could find nothing about these events, which should be huge stories if true.. If anyone has any knowledge of these, please tell me.

The main thing is, my Dad when I ask him if he took an anonymous email to be true or if he verified the info says how do you do that?

My dad is no dummy. He's a genious with numbers, knows just what he stands for and has held high positions in the Army, his church etc.. These tactics really work on some Americans and I don't understand it.
 
Last edited:
2. That a San Francisco Principal gave permission to a teacher to take her entire class to see her wedding (to another woman). Oh, without the parental permission.

To me it's clear that this is garbage fear tactics. I searched the net and could find nothing about these events, which should be huge stories if true.. If anyone has any knowledge of these, please tell me.
I'll pipe in here... just to provide "something" along the lines of info requested...

I DID hear the story over the radio here in Arizona while driving my kids to school. I do not know about the "parental permission" part though. I didn't hear that. It was an actual news story... not an "opinion" broadcast.

End of piping in!
 
To me it's clear that this is garbage fear tactics. I searched the net and could find nothing about these events, which should be huge stories if true.. If anyone has any knowledge of these, please tell me.

The main thing is, my Dad when I ask him if he took an anonymous email to be true or if he verified the info says how do you do that?

My dad is no dummy. He's a genious with numbers, knows just what he stands for and has held high positions in the Army, his church etc.. These tactics really work on some Americans and I don't understand it.

That's what happens when there is no point to be proven... What we commonly call a "no-brainer." That's when the fear tactics start to appear. It's VERY sad (and at the same time scary) that the majority of people, unlike your father, are not checking the facts and are not being able to discern between trues and lies. :awcrap:
 
I'll pipe in here... just to provide "something" along the lines of info requested...

I DID hear the story over the radio here in Arizona while driving my kids to school. I do not know about the "parental permission" part though. I didn't hear that. It was an actual news story... not an "opinion" broadcast.

End of piping in!

Was that a story or someone's fiction to scare people? Is it the true facts or there are spins?
Here is what I found so far: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/14/EDGE13G80Q.DTL&type=politics
 
the reality of our world is that we don't just have soldiers fighting overseas, we have soldiers fighting overseas in the name of freedom from a country where people drive drunk and kill people, teens are killing themselves, and adults are murdering children in the name of anger. Compared to some of those additional evils, I'm even more proud of the soldiers and what they are trying to accomplish in a thank-less world. Let's face it. Iraqi's have a lot more choice in their world today than they ever did before . . . don't they?!
All very great points, and I understand what your saying completely. To my point, though, I would say it's because their isn't enough of these soldiers putting their passion for freedom into afterschool programs, or building playgrounds for kids, or helping to rebuild houses in Louisiana. My question is, how come a soldier needs a gun to fight for freedom?. How come someone has to die for us to feel free?. We already are free, but it seems like we create wars, and label countries as good or bad just as a mark of our willingness to be free. Do soldiers fight in Iraq so children in America have the right to starve at night, or so sick mothers and fathers have the right to not afford healthcare in the worlds richest country?. I just don't think the war in Iraq will bring us to freedom and prosperity, and if it does, then who's next?. Iran?. North Korea?. There's always going to be that one country that threatens our livelihood, and we don't have the military, or the economy, to fight them all through force. Eventually if we want a peaceful world, which should be our ultimate goal, we will have to talk to these countries, and their leaders, or their citizens, and we will have to find a common ground. We as people all have needs, and we can't expect any 3rd world country to submit to us while we promise no food, and no shelter. Our mode of communication is force and we're trying to persuade people through violence. That will never work so unless we have a level headed, honest, and, yes, charasmatic leader, we will never truly convince Iran, or North Korea, or China, or Russia, that we are a nation that truly operates in peace. Barack Obama can, and will, harmonize us with all other countries who want the same. Maybe we won't reach everyone, and maybe we will need to explore other options, but at least we will have created bonds and fellowships with other countries that will stand with us so that if we do need to excercize peace through force, we will not be alone when we do. I hope you can at least agree, in part, with this, and I hope it gives you a better understanding of where I'm coming from!.


You know my Dad got an email this morning about the marriage issue. It's an anonymous email telling people that if homosexuals can marry, than they will be able to sue his church forcing them to perform the ceremony. He's quite concerned about that and I think that's understandable as that would be a clear infringement on his religious freedoms. The email made two outrageous claims further..
1. That this has already been done in Mass.
2. That a San Francisco Principal gave permission to a teacher to take her entire class to see her wedding (to another woman). Oh, without the parental permission.

To me it's clear that this is garbage fear tactics. I searched the net and could find nothing about these events, which should be huge stories if true.. If anyone has any knowledge of these, please tell me.

The main thing is, my Dad when I ask him if he took an anonymous email to be true or if he verified the info says how do you do that?

My dad is no dummy. He's a genious with numbers, knows just what he stands for and has held high positions in the Army, his church etc.. These tactics really work on some Americans and I don't understand it.
Very interesting and, to some, touchy subject. I'm not a christian, nor am I against gay rights, but I think your father has every right to be worried. Marriage is a sacred thing and I think that it should be reserved to the way it is told in The Bible (though I do think that religous leaders should have as much problem with gay marriage as they should with the increasing divorce rates in this country, but that's a whole other issue). As long as homo-sexuals have the same rights and priveledges as any straight couple, I think that marriage should be reserved for hetero-sexual couples. Especially for the reasons you mentioned, such as the possibility of someone suing your fathers church for not allowing the practice of same sex marriage in the church. I do think, though, that it should never be a scare tactic, and as far as rights, homo-sexuals should be entitled to the same freedoms as you, or I. Maybe one day things will be different, and people will be able to accept the possibility of gay marriage, but if not then that is just the same. Freedom is freedom, and all of us deserve it regardless of sexual preference. Thank you very much for putting this discussion out their, and I hope people respond with other opinions, as long as they aren't insensitive and they pertain to the subject!.
 
Was that a story or someone's fiction to scare people? Is it the true facts or there are spins?
Here is what I found so far: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/14/EDGE13G80Q.DTL&type=politics


You'll note that I did not include any of my feelings on this matter and just mentioned that I did hear the story on the news broadcast. I did not hear any spins, but just that the teacher took her kids to her same-sex wedding. I did not know hear about the "parental consent" problem and mentioned such. All I knew and mentioned was what I heard... on a news broadcast.
 
Was that a story or someone's fiction to scare people? Is it the true facts or there are spins?
Here is what I found so far: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/14/EDGE13G80Q.DTL&type=politics

Well done. I knew it would be something like that. And that's sad that I can predict which very important fact they are purposely leaving out.

The parents of these children WANTED them to go. Even better and something I did not expect, they organized that on their own surprising a teacher they cared about. Thanks for finding that for me.

Now, anybody live in Massachusetts? :grin01:
 
You'll note that I did not include any of my feelings on this matter and just mentioned that I did hear the story on the news broadcast. I did not hear any spins, but just that the teacher took her kids to her same-sex wedding. I did not know hear about the "parental consent" problem and mentioned such. All I knew and mentioned was what I heard... on a news broadcast.

And I'm right there with you..
It matters less what I think about the issue as well (for what I'm talking about here).. I'm just talking about this phenomenon. For example the two videos posted here on the first page. Some lies, some stretching of the truth, a lot of truths left out and to a point. This phenomenon is more dangerous than either party on its own, or all the politicians in the world. Emails of dubious origins that people swallow just because it's convenient, fits into what they already believe or want to believe.
 
Well, I'm torn.... I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this one....
Imagine that...politically ignorant blacks voting for a candidate just because he's black.
I wonder hmmm...could there actually be some politically ignorant whites that are voting for their candidate just because he's white hmmmmm....
 
LOL! One of my attorneys sent me this one (of course, he is a gun nut like me, so I understand his finding humor in it)........
 

Attachments

  • obama01.jpg
    obama01.jpg
    132.7 KB · Views: 70
I wonder hmmm...could there actually be some politically ignorant whites that are voting for their candidate just because he's white hmmmmm....

You BET!
In the other hand, it's said to see that skin color still matters for some people. :awcrap:
As far as the Harlem video... It's just a radio interview where anyone could be sketched to say things. Hard to prove. And the sample taken (3 interviews) could be out of N interviews.... Too many variables to even consider addressing.
 
Imagine that...politically ignorant blacks voting for a candidate just because he's black.
I wonder hmmm...could there actually be some politically ignorant whites that are voting for their candidate just because he's white hmmmmm....

I think Rich has posted videos proving both of those points. (Sorry Rich, not to pick on you) The first one did the complete opposite, attributing the economic results of 8 years of GWB to Bill Clinton, the second one attributed McCain's policies to Obama and showed people "supporting" him regardless.

Assuming anyone thought there were good points in the first, I think you nailed it.
 
WOW, clearly that interview was setup out of a racism, and is again propoganda trying to somehow prove african american Obama supporters are politically ignorant. And your "politically ignorant blacks" statement is flat out racist and needs to be controlled by moderators. I just got a PM about how I was out of line by sending rep power to a member because I liked their quote, I said "I like the Tupac quote, I'm a HUGE fan as well". So if something is'nt done about saying "politically ignorant blacks" then you are making the statement on behalf of this site.
Check this crap at the door, I will not tolerate this turning into a racially divided forum. You judged a whole race of people based on one demographic, and Howard Stern is hardly honest journalism. They set out looking for african americans to try to conform the whole demographic, as though they all have the same views, again racist jounalism. Noone cared about the african american vote before Obama, and Mcain has purposely failed to reach out to them because he figures he has a better chance at other votes. Maybe the "politically ignorant" voters, who happen to be black, are just misinformed because Mcain has made zero attempt to share his views and campaign in the areas in which the poeple interviewed live.
I am willing to bet more people are voting for Mcain simply because he is white, and to try to reduce Obama's supporters because of their race is about as low as it gets. I watched an interview live on the news, with a reliable journalist, with a white voter. He claimed that a "black man" can't lead our country, and that the only "black men" he's seen talking about change "had a cup in his hand". Now where is your link to that?
Also that sign about the stolen Mcain sign is in no way funny. It pretty much sums up the violence inside of people that they will express should Obama become president. And the fear they have of a black president due to complete ignorance. I'm ashamed this interview is even being considered a reliable souce of information, and if voters rely on this garbage to justify their opinions, then they are afraid to use their intelligence to read the FACTS.
Again watch the debates, share facts, share hope. But don't spread this garbage, and comlete ignorance and try to sell it as fact. Howard Stern is a joke, and to try to take one clip of his to use it as political proof, is totally wrong. Did'nt Howard Stern just sing a $500million contract, to promote this same type of controversy. Now maybe you have $500mil, but I don't so I don't give a damn about what he has to say. You did'nt share actual information, you shared a clip of an interview by one gigantic fool. You just made him even richer by watching his phony controversy, and this is exactly what he wanted by making that interview.
 
Michael, "Politically ignorant blacks" is not a racist comment. Take it in context. "All blacks are politically ignorant" is a racist comment. Re-read that whole comment and see if you still think that even closely resembles that. What he was saying is just because you find 3 politically ignorant blacks, doesn't mean that that says something about all black voters. Might have taken them all day to find 3 even. He's making the opposite point.. (If you're referring to forked tung that is, If you're referring to something Stern said, I didn't watch it all. I got the gist and then turned it off.)

Surely you don't believe that there is a race that has only politically informed members?
 
Also that sign about the stolen Mcain sign is in no way funny. It pretty much sums up the violence inside of people that they will express should Obama become president. And the fear they have of a black president due to complete ignorance.

While I see you point, I think something should be said about the fact that people can't support their candidate without feeling threatened. That goes for both parties, we live in a country where we should be able to speak freely about our thoughts and opinions. My opinion is Obama is not the kind of president I want, it has nothing to do with his race, it has everything to do with his ideals, his ideas, and his beliefs. I feel that if he were to become president we take a step closer to socialism and I refuse to support someone who wants that. I have no problem hearing someone else's viewpoints and feelings toward my candidate, but in no way should we demean eath other to the point where it is no longer a civil conversation.
 
Back
Top