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How do people that keep repiles keep getting a bad rep?

I'm with you now.

Do you think that with the capacity they have to learn these types of things they have the ability to curb their instincts. For instance, do you think that if this croc was hungry it could consciously make a decision not to eat that guy, but rather the next poor thing that comes by?

BTW - I'm not going anywhere with this. Just curious what you think :D
 
God knows.... I for one wouldn't be in the water with it.....
My answer was for the guy that said the reptilian brain was too small to do anything other than instinct... Or some thing along those lines... I just thought it was interesting that animals I previously thought were un trainable can perform quite complex tasks at the sound of a bell.... Whether that is instinct or not I don't know, but it's interesting that they can learn....
 
hehe - I wouldn't either. Good luck to the guy.

You got me thinking though. Maybe we underestimate these animals.

Thanks Mike
 
Do you think that with the capacity they have to learn these types of things they have the ability to curb their instincts. For instance, do you think that if this croc was hungry it could consciously make a decision not to eat that guy, but rather the next poor thing that comes by?

You pose a good question here. I know that my one snake will pop her head out of her hide when I walk in the room. She also will climb right onto my hand... she's the most personable snake I've ever owned. Meanwhile my ball python would rather just stay in his hide 24/7. Different personalities. I'm under the opinion that every living creature has some sort of cognition and they all have personalities.
The question of "moral thinking" in animals reminds me of a personal story... Not snakes but dogs: at one point in time meat was meat. What makes our dogs consciously say "Hmmm. I'm not going to bite this person".
Out at the ranch I used to work at we had a pack of wild dogs we rounded up and penned for a while and they were right back to natural instinct, we got them to a point where we could keep them around our property chasing off the coyotes and eating all our gophers. They never got to the point where we could snap a collar on or even touch them. They'd hide out and we'd pour them food every evening. They knew to wait for their food but if you got too close they would definitely pose to bite.
So who's to say that a snake isn't able to recognize that we're feeding them and taking care of them. They may not consider us their best friend or anything but some do seem to genuinely enjoy our company.
 
hehe - I wouldn't either. Good luck to the guy.

You got me thinking though. Maybe we underestimate these animals.

Thanks Mike
We always underestimate animals and their ability to learn...
A case in point...
In 1942 German Panzer tanks were sweeping across Russia. The Russians had a great idea, dogs carrying rucksacks full of high explosives to get under the invading tanks (the only weak spot on the panzer). To train the dogs the Russians fed them under tanks to familiarise them... When the big day came the dogs know the difference between Russian and German tanks, and promptly ran under the Russian tanks and blew them up.....
 
Ok, is it just me who thinks the croc is drugged or something? They haven't been bred for temperament for hundred and hundreds of years, therefore they have not been tamed yet. Not by a long shot. There is no reason that croc shouldn't have killed him.

I think he either drugged it or gave it a lobotomy or something.
 
Ok, is it just me who thinks the croc is drugged or something? They haven't been bred for temperament for hundred and hundreds of years, therefore they have not been tamed yet. Not by a long shot. There is no reason that croc shouldn't have killed him.

I think he either drugged it or gave it a lobotomy or something.

So watch this and tell me that again....
 
Reptiles are as diverse cognitively, as any other species, in my opinion. They may not rationalize, or they may. They certainly express varying behaviors among species, and even among individuals of that species.
I have a Corn Snake, my first one, and I really think he has lost most, if not all, of his hunting instincts. He eats like a turtle, and doesn't even make an attempt to coil, or even change position while eating. I would certainly consider him to be conditioned to ignoring most of his primal instincts, and with future consistency, I don't see how later generations couldn't be completely tamed.

Now, whether I would say this Croc is proven to be tamed... I wouldn't put a dime on it. The video stated that he found the Croc five years prior, and he still must have been a big boy, thus hunted a lot of food through instinct. These instincts have been passed down genetically, and used through much of this animals life. Should he even "accidentally" lower his jaws around this man, there is no way it would rationalize releasing it's grip.

Dogs are very different though. Of course they have been domesticated for centuries, but they also have a clear need for companionship, and are of the most intelligence of any many creatures (in my opinion). I can say without any shadow of a doubt that my dog will not have an unpredictable instinct override our bond. She is connected to me unlike any other living being, and we have a great understanding of one another. Reptiles are far from this cognitive capability, and will never reach the same level of trust with humans, and train ability as dogs (at least not until they evolve into dogs).
 
Really? It's the smiplest form of "training" around...reward for response. And it acts entirely on instinct and natural desires. Teach any animal to ring a bell for food, and they will learn it, be it a goldfish, cornsnake, or primate.

If you reward with a necessity for a specific action...you have just trained an animal to perform that action. Positive reinforcement, and a constant reminder of what the acceptable behavior is are all that are needed to instigate a Pavolovian response in any living, breathing creature. You are astisfying one of the animal's most basic needs in exchange for a simple task. It's a no brainer...

However...that does NOT imply domestication NOR does it imply that the animal is "tame". It ONLY means that the animals will perform a specific task for a specific reaction. Shoot...that croc gets hungry enough and I can guarantee you there will be one less dumb reptile lover in the world...
 
If you reward with a necessity for a specific action...you have just trained an animal to perform that action. Positive reinforcement, and a constant reminder of what the acceptable behavior is are all that are needed to instigate a Pavolovian response in any living, breathing creature. You are astisfying one of the animal's most basic needs in exchange for a simple task. It's a no brainer...

Actually, positive reinforcement isn't part of Pavlovian conditioning... Pavlov studied classical conditioning. Positive reinforcement is part of operant conditioning. The two can occur simultaneously, but they are different.

I definitely agree that reptiles are capable of classical and operant conditioning - to me, that's fairly obvious. I doubt very much that they are cognitive or have higher emotion. I have seen no evidence for this.

Humorously, since we're using dogs as our example of cognitive pets, I have to point out that many positive reinforcement only "experts" of dog behavior have been constantly asserting that dogs are not capable of cognition whatsoever, and that they are merely products of conditioning and instinct, and that their "love" for us is merely a combination of their dependence on us for food and shelter, and our own anthropomorphism. I think this is just flat out bad and outdated psychology, but what do I know?

Personally, I find the field of animal cognition fascinating - but I just don't see much in reptiles. They have very basic brains, and they function as such.
 
Humorously, since we're using dogs as our example of cognitive pets, I have to point out that many positive reinforcement only "experts" of dog behavior have been constantly asserting that dogs are not capable of cognition whatsoever, and that they are merely products of conditioning and instinct, and that their "love" for us is merely a combination of their dependence on us for food and shelter, and our own anthropomorphism. I think this is just flat out bad and outdated psychology, but what do I know?
I agree that that is certainly an outdated psychology, as dogs clearly build relationships on more than dependence. My question is what "experts" are you speaking of? as I highly doubt there are "many" positive reinforcement experts that think dogs aren't capable of any cognition, and only rely on humans for resources.
 
Maybe I'm thick, but I don't get it.

How do people that keep repiles keep getting a bad rep?
A. A bad rep for reptile keepers? What about that video suggests a bad rep for reptile keepers?

It's the 80/20 rule. 20% of the people ruin for the other 80%. Its sad.
2. Anything's been ruined for the other 80%. What is the other 80% compared to that video? What from that video suggests that the his 20% has ruined it for the other 80%??

Guts or stupidity? - you decide
III. Stupidity? Obviously that man has successfully done something noone else has, or apparently dares to. Stupid? Guts? Or something entirely different and maybe not so negative? What about that video suggests the man is stupid?

Stupidity and the fact that humans still think they can completely tame wild animals...
4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall hearing the words "completely tame" or even "tame" in that news clip. In fact, the only reference I heard was "seemingly domesticated".

Cool vid. Kudo's to that guy. I guess I'm just thick. :shrugs:
D80
 
I was about to agree post pretty much what you did at first Drizzt, I just didn't want to get flamed. I don't think that video sends the accurate description of most reptiles, but certainly doesn't shed bad light, or make reptile enthusiasts seem worse off than they already are. In fact, I think some might think more positively towards reptiles, not that this is a sign of reptiles being trainable, but more as them seeing one form of a bond people share with them.
I'd be lying to say I wasn't impressed, and although Crocs are certainly unpredictable, this made me think a little differently towards them. I've seen video of someone sticking their head in a Gators mouth, but this was quite different. That seemed to rely on tricking the gator, and unknowingly sneaking their heads into an opened mouth. What this guy was able to do was far more impressive. Rolling the Crocodile in the water, that seems like the Croc must have trusted the guy somewhat. Maybe not like a dog, but it had all of the power to wreck that guy at any moment, yet it seemed content being barrel rolled in the water.
 
I agree that that is certainly an outdated psychology, as dogs clearly build relationships on more than dependence. My question is what "experts" are you speaking of? as I highly doubt there are "many" positive reinforcement experts that think dogs aren't capable of any cognition, and only rely on humans for resources.

Read Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. I'm sure you've heard of her. And she's FAR from the only one - the vast majority of the "big names" in the radical positive only movement are totally inline with her. I'm surprised you aren't aware of this... Many people who are great fans of theirs would totally agree.

"Positive reinforcement only" is based on radical behaviorism, ala the work of B.F. Skinner. (He believed we were all solely products of conditioning.)

Some quote from Culture Clash:

Nobody wants B.F Skinner's dog: the input-output black box who is so obviously not the furry member of our family . It;s been marketed wrong, I think Skinner was right but had gotten bad press. (pg. 9)

But I think there's a second reason for the slow acceptance of realistic interpretations of dog behavior: Simple reluctance to let go of anthropomorphism. Behaviorism, made famous by Skinner, has suffered some serious backlash since it's assult on the world of psychology in the mid-twentheith century. largly becuase it could be successfully argued that hardcore behaviorism comes up short for understanding humans in all their mega-brain complexity. When it comes to animal training and behavior modification, however, the fit is incredibly good. (pg. 10)

Dogs are completly and innocently selfish. The extreme likelihood is that they learn almost exclusively through operant and classical conditioning. (pg. 12)

When are we going to put to bed once and for all the concept that dogs have a "desire to please?" (pg 14)

Any interest your dog has in your mood is based on what he has learned it means for him. (pg. 16)

Interestingly, some of the most sophisticated training jobs are done where no love and little bond is present. (pg 17)

That's pretty black and white, and Donaldson is a pretty big name (if you're into that kind of a thing). And she's far from the only one - Culture Clash is simply a very popular piece of literature.

This is not a some oddball sect of the positive only movement, but rather constitutes its very foundations... many times unbeknownst to those who preach and follow its ways.

Personally, I find it mind-boggling that a very clinical and cold method has sucked in all the bleeding hearts! Most of them have no idea that their idols think dogs are just input-output boxes. Oh well... just one of those funny things.
 
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