Shaniya Davis....Fayetteville, NC Tragedy

[Maligator]

The 'would' in the first sentence is unnecessary.

 

[Nova_C]

What should happen? I'm not sure. I wouldn't mourn him, or feel sorry for him, if he was executed. Some people deserve to die. The reason this thread turned into a CP debate is because I challenge the idea of revenge as being justice. I actually want to know why people think being violent is a cure for violence. Because I don't accept that.

In this case, maybe he should die, but this is not happening in a vacuum. If we allow punishment like mutilation or execution in this case, then we allow it in others. Do we begin to deal with crime on an emotional basis? Or do we actually try to prevent this sort of thing?

Ultimately, execution or mutilation is closing the barn door after the horse got out. That is, in order to deserve such a penalty, someone has already committed a horrific act. I'd rather Florida (Referencing my previous link) spend 50 million dollars a year trying to prevent these tragedies from occurring in the first place than in simply executing someone who is already locked in prison.

 

[tsst]

I mean, currently the cost of executing someone runs in the tens of millions.

http://www.flanews.com/?p=4210

Leaving aside the morality of capital punishment and the likelihood of executing innocents, is capital punishment worth the cost? That is, in a society as obsessed with crime as the US seems to be, as well as the finite nature of tax dollars, is capital punishment even a good use of that money to reduce violent crime, let alone the best use?

The highly publicized costs include way too much legal jockeying and the inefficiencies of a system that grows more and more lenient toward criminals to please the bleeding hearts. I am fairly certain that the daily use cost of an execution chamber, a doctor to administer the lethal injection, some guards on site, the power to run the equipment, and the other small extraneous costs of the day etc etc etc are actually very much less than tens of millions. I believe you don't see the same costs with prison because there isn't as much legal cost. There are no ten year battles for the validity of imprisonment like there are for execution. Legal costs aside I would highly doubt that a day of execution would cost the hundreds of thousands per person that prison factually does cost.

 

[Maligator]

What should happen? I'm not sure. I wouldn't mourn him, or feel sorry for him, if he was executed. Some people deserve to die. The reason this thread turned into a CP debate is because I challenge the idea of revenge as being justice. I actually want to know why people think being violent is a cure for violence. Because I don't accept that.

In this case, maybe he should die, but this is not happening in a vacuum. If we allow punishment like mutilation or execution in this case, then we allow it in others. Do we begin to deal with crime on an emotional basis? Or do we actually try to prevent this sort of thing?

Ultimately, execution or mutilation is closing the barn door after the horse got out. That is, in order to deserve such a penalty, someone has already committed a horrific act. I'd rather Florida (Referencing my previous link) spend 50 million dollars a year trying to prevent these tragedies from occurring in the first place than in simply executing someone who is already locked in prison.

I agree completely that violence is not a way to cure violence. I remember reading a bumper sticker that said something along the lines of "Why do we kill people for killing people to show other people that killing people is wrong?"

But when I see something like this, I just can't think of what should be DONE with this people like this. It seems that no matter what form of punishment is decided, it's either not going to be harsh enough in some eyes or it's going to be something on par with 'an eye for an eye'. Should these offenders sit in a prison for the rest of their lives eating/sleeping/showering on a budget that isn't their own? Or should we eliminate them so that other offenders - who are equally as unstable - will think of ways to hide their crimes more efficiently; or, as one would hope, decide against it altogether? Aside from kill them or don't kill them; what can actually be done to prevent crime like this with a 100% guarantee that previous offenders won't repeat their actions?

I know this is a tense subject and I honestly see it from both sides. On one hand, it doesn't make sense to perform the death penalty in a society so against killing but on the other hand - people, are tired of their loved ones being murdered.

 

[Nova_C]

tsst: Right, but that's what it costs. We could remove a lot of that and end up with more innocent executions, but it would save money, I guess.

The cost of executing someone, just the cost itself, is pretty cheap. But you could house 50 dangerous prisoners for 25 years for what a single execution is costing the state of Florida.

Maligator: The notion that prison is a free ride provided by the taxpayer has always been strange to me. If prison is such a cushy place, why do people try to not go to prison when caught committing crimes?

Also, it's been pretty effectively proven, which is something I've been getting at in all these threads, that capital punishment is worthless as a deterrent. Especially in cases like this - People like the man in the OP aren't going to be stopped by any threat of punishment. What they do fills some need that precludes a deterrent.

As far as loved ones being murdered - sexual crimes are typically committed by people known to the victim, often enough a family member. So it's the loved ones that, in many, many cases, are doing the assault.

 

[tsst]

... The reason this thread turned into a CP debate is because I challenge the idea of revenge as being justice. ...

I don't think CP should be revenge either. But I do feel it is a valid punishment in some cases.

... I actually want to know why people think being violent is a cure for violence. Because I don't accept that. ...

I don't think there is a cure for violence. Again it is intended as a punishment not a cure.

... In this case, maybe he should die, but this is not happening in a vacuum. If we allow punishment like mutilation or execution in this case, then we allow it in others. Do we begin to deal with crime on an emotional basis? Or do we actually try to prevent this sort of thing? ...

I vote for prevention but since that is a non-possibility as a whole we have punishment. In actuality CP is prevention for that specific criminals future crimes.

... Ultimately, execution or mutilation is closing the barn door after the horse got out. That is, in order to deserve such a penalty, someone has already committed a horrific act. I'd rather Florida (Referencing my previous link) spend 50 million dollars a year trying to prevent these tragedies from occurring in the first place than in simply executing someone who is already locked in prison.

Until we can see the future it is ALL closing the barn door after the horse got out. The difference is we don't have to close the barn door multiple times after the same criminal commits repeated horrific acts.

 

[Maligator]

Because it's a form of punishment. A child will avoid going to a 'time-out' at all costs because why? Not because it's terribly uncomfortable or painful. Because it's a form of punishment. I'm not trying to say it's 'cushy'. I'm just saying it's not denying them any of their basic human needs.

This isn't exactly related to the topic but some prisoners are even fond of the system. I have a cousin who has been in and out of prison since he turned eighteen for theft. (Mostly cars, but apparently he was breaking into garages, as well) And through letters, I've learned that he doesn't mind prison. He doesn't have to pay rent or have a job. He can read; talk to his fellow inmates, work out. He is even allowed to take classes in the prison.

And about the crimes committed by loved ones: Yes, typically - but that doesn't mean that ALL of deceased's loved ones are performing the assault. [Unless we're talking about that Missouri case]. Just because the victim knew the offender doesn't change the fact that their innocent family members/friends are outraged and wanting something done.

 

[Maligator]

edit: Not all prisoners like prison - not trying to go there, either. Just making a point that some get very used to it and ultimately don't see it as a life-ender.

 

[vetusvates]

Nova_C, I have drawn the line for you. Everything north and east of the red line as indicated by the red arrows you can rehab and release into society all you want. South and west of the red line as indicated by the blue arrows punish to the full extent of US law for cases like this.

:roflmao:
O.
M.
G.
THE Post Of The Day, maybe the month.
:roflmao:

 

[tsst]

tsst: Right, but that's what it costs. We could remove a lot of that and end up with more innocent executions, but it would save money, I guess.

The cost of executing someone, just the cost itself, is pretty cheap. But you could house 50 dangerous prisoners for 25 years for what a single execution is costing the state of Florida.

We will have to disagree here. With today's technology there should be no doubt of guilt when the death penalty is applied. If there is doubt then it should not be used. Much of the legal jockeying is not over guilt or innocence but over technicalities.

... The notion that prison is a free ride provided by the taxpayer has always been strange to me. If prison is such a cushy place, why do people try to not go to prison when caught committing crimes? ...

It may not be cushy but today's prisons seem far from what most criminals believe to be a deterrent.

... Also, it's been pretty effectively proven, which is something I've been getting at in all these threads, that capital punishment is worthless as a deterrent. Especially in cases like this - People like the man in the OP aren't going to be stopped by any threat of punishment. What they do fills some need that precludes a deterrent. ...

Think punishment not deterrent. If it as a side affect one criminal is deterred great. If none are then oh well, the intended purpose (punishment) was still carried out.

 

[vetusvates]

DYK, let me preface what I'm going to say with actually stating where I stand. Finally....on the CP/DP subject....and just this once.
I voted in whoever's original thread it was that had the poll, Lucille's, Lauren's, somebody's,....that I thought CP/DP was indicated in some cases. (And in these two most recently discussed cases, I believe these are the perfect candidates for the DP.) That should of course be decided by non-family members and every time on an individual and unique situation/occasion/venue/whatever. Well represented, and with all facts and evidence publicly out there in the middle of the table.
People like the guy who raped and killed the young boy in the other thread, and the scumbag here in the OP, have forfeited their full freedoms and rights......but I will trust "the system" to house and feed and pamper them as innocents.....until they are proven guilty.
I...just...can't...feel quite right about physical or chemical castration. Personally I just don't feel comfortable going there, because I do believe people deserve their own personal space and dignity. They can be executed with their space and dignity intact, well enough.

Nova, Lboz and diamondlil are nurses. I worked in a hospital lab, and am now a Subst. Abuse Counselor.......so it is not difficult for me to see the big picture, as it relates to the 'humanitarian direction' just about any one could apply to their day to day job and life. Nothing is perfect. No one is perfect. No system is perfect. And I never have a day that is perfect. But many people work in fields, as the three people I mentioned, that do believe in helping people. Believe me, in my personal job I am often dealing with minorities of every fashion. Who are self-destructive as heck. And I may make the odd, rare, wrong decision. But I am educated, I am trained, I weigh, and I think, and I am compassionate, understanding, and forgiving.....with the population with whom I've chosen to work.
But you cannot just do NO-thing. Standing by and not taking a step because you might kill a doodle bug is unrealistic in the extreme.
BUT.....I feel like I make good decisions most most most of the time. First, do no harm. Choosing to err on the side of a client or resident. My heart is in it, and there is gratification in it. And somebody's got to do it. And it could be an evil rotten somebody.
Abolishing a penal system, because of exceptions, is throwing the baby out with the bath water. We humans have, historically, and will continue, with wisdom, to evolve....and to evolve with more nearly perfect systems, be they issues/systems of the legal system, population control, health care, or what to do with the elderly.

 

[LBoz]

Show me that castration or a Scarlet Letter benefits society.

. What they do fills some need that precludes a deterrent.

Exactly! It fulfills a need, and regardless of the "deterrent", they will continue to try to fill thise need regardless of the consequences. So at what point do we remove them from society so that no other children are at risk of them fulfilling said need against them??

Would society NOT benefit from castration of these individuals? Would the DP NOT benefit society by having removed the threat? Show me how releasing them back into the public mainstream benefits society...

 

[TandJ]

I actually want to know why people think being violent is a cure for violence. Because I don't accept that.

Come busting through my door uttering death threats.. I am quite sure that me, showing you the Desert Eagle 10 might be cosindered violence too.. Remember to think, as your getting dragged out in a body that your violence, caused my violence and you indeed paid up in full.. Violent Action solved, with violence.. This should require no further explanation..

 

[TandJ]

You must spread reputation before giving it LBoz again

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[vetusvates]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to LBoz again.

Tim, I got the same darn thing.

And if I remember correctly, Lori, you were an NICU nurse and a pediatric cancer nurse. In addition to being a mother.
I have no children, but you just don't touch the young or the very old.

 

[Lennycorn]

Show me how releasing them back into the public mainstream benefits society...

It didn't help this five year old.

Again this is pure sick!!

There shouldn't be a debate on this one!

 

[Nova_C]

But you cannot just do NO-thing. Standing by and not taking a step because you might kill a doodle bug is unrealistic in the extreme.

At no point have I advocated that. It's strange to me that my position, that capital punishment should be abolished, is responded with "Well, you can't just do nothing!" I mean, unless we're killing ALL criminals, we're doing something. If someone is against slow evisceration as a punishment, does that mean they're against any and all punishments?

I could accept the death penalty with the following conditions: That no innocent is executed, that it is as humane as possible, that the crime committed definitely deserves death and that the person being executed is certain to re-offend. The humane part, and the definitely deserves death part are the only two I can see as being fulfilled as requirements. The other two require (I believe) an impossible level of clairvoyance.

Vet, honestly, I respect your position more than anyone else here simply because of the fact that you already try to help people who've made mistakes rebuild their lives. We may not agree on the lengths to which the justice system should go, but I believe that at the very least you agree with my complaint that society as a whole writes off those accused and those convicted of crimes way too readily.

TandJ, you really like making things personal, eh? I'll agree that the immediate situation was resolved, but then again, maybe my home-boys will come gunnin' for revenge. At any rate, I wouldn't begrudge someone defending themselves with a necessary level of violence, but violence as justice? No, I still don't accept it. Justice doesn't have to be violent.

LBoz, you're misunderstanding my position, either intentionally or not. I do not advocate releasing dangerous people from prison. Nor do I advocate 'slaps on the wrist' for serious crimes. Stop conflating my opposition to the death penalty with opposition to consequence. I absolutely support life sentences, real life sentences, for people that are simply too dangerous to be released.

tsst, if a punishment isn't a deterrent, then it's not really working, now is it?

Maligator: You know, your post reminded me of Jon-Benet Ramsey. I felt sick every time I saw that little girl's face on a tabloid front page. I felt enraged. It was always "New evidence show's mom's guilt" or something. It doesn't matter who killed her, it's none of the public's business who killed her, but every time a tabloid prints that little girl's face, they're forcing the people that did love her, that were devastated by her death, to relive the tragedy. I am sickened by our society's obsession with crime and with celebrity. I am sickened by our society's acceptance of profiting from tragedy. Where is the justice for a family torn apart by tabloid exploitation?

 

[bekers71]

That 'type' of crime? How do you mean?

Or are you saying anyone who ends up on the sexual offender registry should be permanently ostracized and not allowed to recover their life?

A person that commits a crime such as the OP posted has no conscience or remorse. They have no value for human life. The crime they commit is not a mistake or accident. It's a hunger to fulfill a sick need. They prey on small children and women for power. If the child or woman is not murdered then when do they get to recover their life? How long do the nightmares run through their heads? What about the mental/physical damage or possible disfigurement for a life time? This type of crime affects the victim forever. Hurting future relationships and some times cause one to commit suicide. The victim will have fears like no one else around them would ever understand. Here's a little test for you to try: Close your eyes and picture your self as a small 5 yr old boy/girl. Now imagine a full grown man raping you while you try scream for help. The fear you have and the pain and no one to help you. Not a nice picture is it? So for a man that commits such a crime, we should give him counseling and keep setting him free? Let him keep his rights while he takes so much away from others? In my eyes he has no rights. If he is able to commit a crime like this once he will do it again. He has no fear of the law nor does he care for the humans around him. Why would you fight for the rights of people like this?

 

[Nova_C]

Bekers, I think you win the 'Not Reading The Thread' award today.

 

[vetusvates]

Nova, I am saying there are a bazillion shades of grey between black and white. Each crime and perp should be dealt with individually. Not every one should be dispatched.
Just certain ones.
No blanket statement, on my part, either way.