new morphs

hey there i was just wondering why is it so hard for some people to beleave that an amature or a upcoming/small buiesness dealing with corns to stumble over a new morph?

Because alot of people don't do their research. There are too many unscrupulous (or lazy) people out there that will hatch out a snake that looks different, and immediately proclaim it a new morph with all offspring labeled as 'hets'.

The people who test-breed the snake and its offspring to verify that the trait is heritable are the ones who actually gain creditability.

-Kat

ok thanks i see were your comming from

hediki said:

hey there i was just wondering why is it so hard for some people to beleave that an amature or a upcoming/small buiesness dealing with corns to stumble over a new morph?

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It's not possible to prove the inheritance of a new gene without having 3 generations of a family tree. That means the person has to hatch 2 generations after having initially stumbled upon something.

Serpwidgets said:

It's not possible to prove the inheritance of a new gene without having 3 generations of a family tree. That means the person has to hatch 2 generations after having initially stumbled upon something.

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Two generations? A good thing to know! I would have thought that if you actually had a pair of a "new" morph, and the F1 generation looked exactly as the parents, you could say it was genetic. I guess the next generation would be absolute proof, and not just "dumb luck". I sure hope my male "blued steel" motley decides to eat again. I'd hate to only have the female....SO much easier to breed a male to multiple females to test the genetics!

Susan said:

Two generations? A good thing to know! I would have thought that if you actually had a pair of a "new" morph, and the F1 generation looked exactly as the parents, you could say it was genetic. I guess the next generation would be absolute proof, and not just "dumb luck". I sure hope my male "blued steel" motley decides to eat again. I'd hate to only have the female....SO much easier to breed a male to multiple females to test the genetics!

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It depends on what you mean. But to prove it is a single-gene (mendelian recessive, dominant, or codominant) it requires three generations.

1- Breed mutant to normal
If it's all normals, it isn't proven, but might be recessive.

If it's half normals half like the parent, it could be dominant or codominant.

Breed F1 X F1 to create third generation... if it returns from normals in ~25% of the offspring, it's likely a simple-recessive.

If two of the mutant F1s were crossed, it should produce approx 75% mutants to 25% normals if it is simple-dominant.

If two of the mutant F1s were crossed, it should produce approx 25% normal, 50% (het) mutants, 25% even more extreme (homozygous) mutants if it's simple-codominant.

If you simply cross two like-looking animals together and produce more of the same, you've proven that the look is heritable, but nothing about its mode of inheritance. It could be selectively bred.

Here's a GREAT example of someone who has a pretty snake or two and decided to stick the label 'New Morph' on the container (found on that other site's classifieds):

Red Velvet Hypos, These snakes are Amazing looking. This Morph popped up in my collection back in 2002 and I have bred them out to prove them genetic. They are a combination or color and Pattern Morphs to makes this stunning looking banded Bright Red Hypo. Take a bit of banded motley, throw in some Blood Red Blood, ad the Hypo (no white gene) and mix in some Blue Eyed Ghost, shake it all up and Bingo this guys come out!
They grow to Have deep Maroon Red saddles with a light pinkish orange background Color. You have to see them to believe them!!!

The First Picture is of one of My Breeding Females, so you can see what they grow into, the other two pictures are of the pair that I have for sale. They have shed and fed several times on F/T small pinks.
This is the last pair of these guys that I expect to have!

These Beautiful NEW Morphs are only $150.00 for the pair However the price does not include shipping cost. With you zip code I can get you the exact shipping cost Via FedEx, I do not charge Box or cold pack fees so the cost will be nothing but the shipping.
Please email me for more information. These snakes come from my Genetic Milkshake line and are Multi Het for all kinds of things. Please visit my web site for more information on the MilkShake Corns
Thank you,
<Name Omitted>

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The picture of the adult posted in the ad looks like a very nice banded crimson. The pictures of the hatchlings that I've copied over to here don't look like anything more than straight ol' hypos. If you stuck these guys in a bag with a bunch of other hypo As, I'd be hard-pressed to identify them as anything different.

(These photos are not mine. They are reposted here without permission, to illustrate a point.)

-Kat

Cool, well at least I know that all of the regular old hypos I hatched this year are a NEW morph! And since mine also came from multi het parents, mine are also milkshakes and het for all kinds of things, too.

lets say you get to corns w/c and coinsidentaly they both have a new hidden gene. and it showsa drastic color change from anyother morph then would you still requir future test to realy prove it.

Always Hediki. Because of the variation among snakes of the same morph, without breeding trials, anyone can take something ordinary and claim that it is something new. Kat gave a perfect example. (I actually emailed him asking if the "new morph" was bred out to the hypo lines to prove its credibility as a bonafide "new morph" and asked him what made him think it was indeed "new. " I also told him that if he did not prove the new "trait out," IMO he should NOT advertise them as anything but hypos, which is what they appeared to be. I never recieved an email back. :shrugs: oh well.)

Of course, sometimes the claim of a new morph can turn out to be "the real thing." Unfortunately, it is very rare. More often than not, they are just tagged with the "new morph" label as a way to improve marketability. Without proof, IMO it is nothing short of a scam. Imagine paying $700 for a "brand new morph" just to find out it was an oddly colored normal...

Hypomelanism- reduced black

Hypomelanism in the milkshake line- no white gene

Nice to know.

I think the biggest problem is that someone new into this hobby or business just doesn't have the experience to have seen all, much less most, of the cultivars that now exist. So, quite frankly, many things that they may come across, while new to them, may not be new at all, just new to them. Wish I had a dime for every time I have gotten some excited email from someone claiming they hatched out something new and it wound up being a regular baby motley corn or even a baby blood red.

I get *new* things hatching out every year. But lately I just take the position that Murphy's Law is trying to make me into a fool by my claiming that it is something new rather then a variation of something else. So I am cautious about making such claims. That means there is likely a pipeline that is about 4 to 6 years long from the time that something new crops up and I would feel even slightly comfortable making such a claim. And as the list of existing cultivars grows ever longer, that pipeline will get longer and longer. Even then, my certainty will never exceed 99 percent in anything I claim.

Of course, extrapolating on what I am saying here, the time is approaching where I will NEVER be able to claim with any certainty that something is *new*, simply because the time required to prove it is longer then I am willing to expend in order to do so.

Speaking of that, you fully prove the new anery yet? I'm sure all of those test breeding clutches have hatched, right?

hediki said:

lets say you get to corns w/c and coinsidentaly they both have a new hidden gene. and it showsa drastic color change from anyother morph then would you still requir future test to realy prove it.

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This (an odd offspring from normal or otherwise "not new" parents) happens every once in a while. Sometimes it proves out as reproduceable, but many times it is not. The point of a morph is that it can be reproduced in some predictable way. Otherwise it's just an odd individual.

There are plenty of non-heritable causes of different looks. Some can happen from environmental conditions or diseases. I've got a very odd-looking "anery-like" hatchling, whose egg was attacked by fungus. Some looks can happen through flukes in the genetic copying process that are not passed down to offspring because they make the affected individual infertile. There's also conjoined twins, like Rich's two-headed bloodred, which IMO is unlikely to be heritable. Another oddity, known as a chimera, happens by combining of embryonic cells. (It's possible that Frank Pinello's "odd bloodred" is a chimera and is actually made up of cells from a ghost embryo and a bloodred embryo.)

Until it has been shown that there is some kind of predictable inheritance pattern (which again requires a three generation family tree) there's no way to say what will result from breeding "new morph X" to whatever you choose to breed it to.

Joejr14 said:

Speaking of that, you fully prove the new anery yet? I'm sure all of those test breeding clutches have hatched, right?

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I am 99 percent certain that the type 'C' anery is a new gene.

Hey serp...remember the bloodred that popped out of the clutch that Mike Panichi produced? (we saw in Daytona) it was from a hypo bloodred clutch but didn't resemble any of its offspring. that is a good example.

it most likely is a hypo bloodred, but definately worth holding back to see if it is an ultra ya know?

Hey Rich, any pics of the anery c?

We seem to have the phenomenon going on here in Sweden. Ther are people selling 'dark phase ghosts' and 'black ghosts' that are just good 'ol anerythristics and nothing more. They're charging like a wounded bull for them too!

I have a line of pink snows,that I think maybe new,last year i bred the male to two different loyd lemke line snows and got all just some nice loyd lemke bubblegum snows,this year his sisters were big enough to breed,one being a pink snow motley the other just a pink snow,I bred the high pink male to one of his sisters this year and ended up with a clutch that all resembled him as a baby.they have a distinct red line that runs from there head to there tails,as they grow it turns to a flouresent pink that covers the entire body! the other female high pink motley was bred to a lavender male,I got a clutch of normals and anerys.I feel if anything can color up lavenders these should! hopefully when these get big enough to breed I should produce some killer lavender motleys!

Got any photo's ???