Killing Snakes

I'm not disagreeing at all. I know that the best way to do it is what should be done. However, Jack just didn't seem to understand how hard it is for some of us to make that decision. If I had a snake that needed to be put down, I wouldn't be able to do it. I would have to take it to a vet or someone who isn't attached to the snake for them to do it. I hope I never have to make that decision, but I plan on getting into breeding someday and I know the time may come when I must. I may go broke doing it, but I think I'd have to bring sick hatchlings to the vet :-/

There are pros and cons in keeping reptiles

Flygning said:

If I had a snake that needed to be put down, I wouldn't be able to do it. I would have to take it to a vet or someone who isn't attached to the snake for them to do it. I hope I never have to make that decision, but I plan on getting into breeding someday and I know the time may come when I must. I may go broke doing it, but I think I'd have to bring sick hatchlings to the vet :-/

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If seeing a snake waste away because it simply refused to eat, or it had a tumor, or for no assignable reason whatsoever bothers you that much, then you should really rethink becoming a breeder. In the last year I've lost close to 30 snakes because of these very reasons. It is hard losing something that you have nurtured and kept since it emerged from one of your clutches. I won't even dwell on the fact that some are one of a kind project animal and can never be replaced or even reproduced.

It is important to remember that snakes have large clutches for the sole purpose of ensuring that at least one or two will survive to adulthood and live long enough to reproduce. Not all snakes are going to survive. It is all part of natural selection, the survival of the fittest. If anyone plans on being a serious collector or breeder, then face the fact that death is just part of the game.

I know that there would be some hatchlings that just wouldn't be able to make it if I started breeding them. It would break my heart to see those that couldn't survive, but I'd be happy for the ones that did. Of course I would do anything I could to help them live, but if they just couldn't do it, I'd have to have someone else do the "dirty deed". I'm squeamish that way, but I believe that the surviving ones would make it worth it.

You think so now Victoria, but more than likely when faced with the choice you'll do whatever needs be done. I used to think I was too squeemish to pre-kill the rodents~ that was only 3 or 4 years ago~ tonight I was demonstrating the proper method for cerivical dislocation to one of my sons teenage freinds and now the boys are running around the house joking about going home tomarrow and showing thier folks what Mikes mom taught them how to do~

In the last 3 years since I decided I wanted to keep and breed snakes~
I've frozen off an egg bound snake that I felt was suffering~
I've killed hundreds and hundreds of rodents using CO2 (and I beleive perfected my technique and taught it to others)
I've killed hundreds of rodents via cervical dislocation when I needed a rat/mouse when the CO2 chamber was inconveinent (and have taught others how to do that without causing un-due pain or trauma just tonight)
Now that I think about it~ I've killed a lot of things in the last three years ~ that snake (and a couple I was trying NOT to kill!) rats, mice, hamsters and baby chickens (long story)
I've gotten pretty good at it I suppose!
If you get serious into this you will have to get over being squeemish~ and it just seems to happen~ and then you look back one night and realize your really very good at it now. Kind of depressing aint it?

So I'll wake up one morning and realize I'm good at killing things? I should be a Marine I suppose if I get into breeding big time, I wouldn't have time to deal with taking a single hatchling to the vet to get it put down. I guess I've got a few years to brace myself for it anyway. But, lol, when I have kids I can teach their friends how to kill a mouse. That'll be fun...*I hope they're girls* :grin01:

Unpleasant though it is, we need to put the needs of the snake above our own feelings in this situation. If an animal is suffering, then it's our duty to see that it's dispatched it in the most humane way we can. If we then need to go throw up and feel guilty, so be it. I don't look forward to the day that I ever have to make the decision, let alone take action myself, but should that day come, I hope that my love for my pet will ensure that I do the right thing by them.

JM ) you're really very pround of yourself huh? I bet your sons friends had fun putting that into practice.

And uh, you CAN try and bring an eggbound snake to the vet. I've heard of many people here that sucessfully treated an eggbound snake so i don't know while your here bragging about it. You won't like freezing to death either.

Missy said:

i will have to strongly disagree with you there
i do not think the rspca are too heavy at all, if anything i think they should do more.
and like i said before i'd have no choice but to take it to the vet.

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The current RSPCA policy document “Policies on animal welfare” (revised 2003) says

“Exotic animals such as snakes, lizards and terrapins often carry disease, are difficult to look after and are rarely provided with adequate facilities. Such animals are unsuitable as companion animals”.

My apologies Missy if I disagree with you, however, this seems to say that we shouldn't be keeping any of these animals in the UK because

1. They are not in the RSPCA's opinion suitable and

2. Most keepers in the UK are inadequate.

If I lived in a block of flats on the twelfth floor and was out at work all day the RSPCA would not like me to own any pet but would prefer me to have a dog or cat under these circumstances. A snake would not be traumatised in this situation, it wont sit pining at the door waiting for you to come home so it can go for a ride in the lift to cock its leg at the nearest tree.

Now I am new to snake keeping but I went out and bought a vivarium, substrate, heat pad, thermometer, water bowl and hide box before i collected my snake. I set up the habitat and and let it run empty for over a week so that it was acclimatised ready for the snake to be homed. I know I don't know everything, that's why i joined this forum and looked up as many web sites on corn snakes as possible, yet the RSPCA would still rather I did not keep snakes.

Don't get me wrong, the RSPCA does a great job in protecting abused and maltreted animals, That's what they are best at.

Jicin~ Aren't you just a nice guy~

I am proud I can take care of business when I need to~ Sorry to disappoint you~ I showed my sons freinds how to do it because I think knowing how to do it properly in the first place is important. None of them asked to "practice" and if they had I would have been disappointed in them.

You can take an egg bound snake to the vet? Wow~ will wonders never cease?

I know that. Saddly I'm not perfect like you. That particular snake was a WC gravid BP that had been allowed to go to long under too much stress. The egg was necrotic~ a discussion with the vet was WHY I put her down ~yes, freezing was his suggestion~ the drug he had in mind~ *oxytosin* (I think) was unlikely to work because of the time issue and surgery would surely kill her in the condition she was in.

Seriously~ I applogise for jumping in here like I knew what I was talking about. I was simply pointing out that what you think you can't do~ you learn if have too. I may have added more info than was needed or is helpful to you.

This discussion is starting to take a nasty turn......

Missy said:

however i will say this, Jicin is about the only person here who i do agree with, my female had been egg-bound twice and twice i had to take her to the vet, and she lived through both also. from what im making out here is that no matter what problem you come across its time to end its life!

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My .02: Jicin, your comments were way out of line and IMO you owe Cheryl an apology. You made some awfully big assumptions as to the actions that Cheryl did or did not take. In this case, especially given her response, I'd have to say that your assumption were completely wrong and without merit.

Missy, you’re stuck in the false paradigm that money spent equal humane treatment. Doctors can't always fix what ails us. Something else for you to think about: I bet there are numerous members of this forum that know as much (and in some cases more) than most small animal vets that are out there. A good knowledgeable reptile vet is rare. I know many keepers that have invested time, effort, and experience into their collections and are better suited to diagnose and treat the animals in their care than a vet.

The sad fact is that in all but a few cases, health problems can be directly traced to poor husbandry practices. Such things as scale rot, eye caps, dehydration, bad sheds, wounds by other animals, obesity, stress and even most cases of dystocia are avoidable and completely within the control of the keeper.

Experience is your best weapon in this hobby. The more you learn, the more you know. Choosing not to breed an egg bound snake a second time is something you’ll learn from experience. Making adjustments to the enclosure to improve shedding is something you learn from experience. Knowing that your option have run their course and it is time to end the suffering is also something you learn from experience.

so your saying cav that i shouldnt have bred her for the second time?
so the eye problem and the obesity is all my fault?

now i have deleted my last post as i cannot be bothered with it.

now i have to say cav, in my defense that both times she was egg-bound they were accidental and i was given some wrong advice. the overweight one gets fed a normal size mouse every 14 days now like my vet adviced me to. she has lost an ounce at the moment and i'm giving her plenty more excercise. the eye problem is not my fault either, they are kept between 80-85c, around 50-55 humity, 60-65 humity around shedding, they all eat perfectly, all shed perfectly, never have had any problems as of yet. the eye thing is a hic cup. shes gonna be fine, its just something that happens every now and then, it had nothing to do with shedding either.
i do know a good knowledgeable vet thank you very much too. the aussie's certainly know about snakes.
i do not want to turn this discussion into something nasty, these are simply my opinions, okay.

Calm down....you're upset for no reason

Missy I never said that anything was your fault. I just gave you examples of some of the most common husbandry related health problems seen in snakes. All of them also happen to be husbandry related.

Your last post provides perfect examples for the points I made:

1. Obesity is solely the fault of the keeper. You have learned (through experience) what makes for a more appropriate diet for your snake and have made adjustments. Kudos

2. You "accidentally" bred a snake twice. Twice that snake bore the brunt of your decision. Twice you were given bad advice. Now, it sounds like you have learned (through that experience) more appropriate husbandry skills that will prevent such an event in the future. Kudos again

I'm glad that you have found a good herp vet. In that you are fortunate. I on the other hand live in a city of more than 1 million and there is exactly 1 vet that is knowledgeable enough for me to trust the care of my animals. I have out diagnosed (correctly ) three others. Learn all you can from your Aussie friend. It is your animals that will be helped by that relationship.

One last suggestion: Don't get so defensive when others try to help. There is no doubt in my mind that your want to provide the best care for your animal that is possible. If you didn't, you wouldn't spend so much time around here.

I will most definately not apologise to someone who takes pride in killing. I can kill but i hate to do it. Never would i post my 'list of kills' on the interet to show off. "I killed a rat and a hamster and mice and snakes. Aren't i cool? I can do it in different ways". I'm not saying the killing itself is wrong. A snake needs to eat in order to live. But keep things like this to youself oke?

JM :o) said:

tonight I was demonstrating the proper method for cerivical dislocation to one of my sons teenage freinds and now the boys are running around the house joking about going home tomarrow and showing thier folks what Mikes mom taught them how to do~

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May i quote the 'showing off'? I don't suppose their teaching their friends with rubber mice.

JM :o) said:

I've frozen off an egg bound snake that I felt was suffering~

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And suddenly you say a 'vet' told you that??? You clearly say *you* felt it was suffering. And later you feel threatend because the snake might have lived with proper care and you invent a vet. Yeah right. I hope noone here picked up the fact an eggbound snake suffers and should be killed! It should see a vetrenarian.

JM :o) said:

I've gotten pretty good at it I suppose!

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Not to mention you obviously enjoy the fact.

I'm really sorry and i am not trying to turn anyone against me. But please read this 'persons' post carefully. I like this forum because the members care about their pets. And so do i. And there is nothing wrong with the topics itself since people are trying to find a humane way of killing when the animal suffers and there is nothing to do about it anymore. Not because we enjoy killing the food animals. And i still think this person encourages animal cruely. Teaching children to kill off mice This has no place in imho.

Again~ I will appoligise for upsetting you so much Jicin. I posted last night because I was bored~ and no I was not looking to brag~ just to point out that what you once thought you could not do~ you learn you can if you have too. Mostly I just wanted to chat a bit and was trying to appear freindly (guess you read that as flippant)

I went outside just now and asked several rats to fall over and stop breathing for me so I would not have to humanely kill them before feeding them out~ but they just didn't seem to understand my request. Perhaps it's a training issue? (BTW~ THAT part was flippant)

I did not invent a Vet~ I very seriously told you that I am not perfect~ I waited too long to consult with a vet in that case and that vet agreed that I had waited too long (we also discussed the moral issue of importing the WC gravid snake in the first place~ again I come out of that badly so go ahead and enjoy) He seemed to think Freezing was the appropriate choice~ but I did suggest it~ he simply agreed with me. This was over a year ago~ but your welcome to look for him if you feel it is important to you. I lived on Edwards AFB (In California) at the time~ I think his name was Derek Mathis (I wouldn't swear to the spelling~ sorry) and he lived accross the street from me. (Again~ I'm a bad person~ I spoke with the Vet accross the street when I became concerned rather than taking her to the clinic two blocks over)

I don't see how teaching teenage boys how to humanely dispatch prey items is cruelty. Maybe no teenagers in The netherlands keep snakes~ but here they do. Some of my sons freinds are asking thier parents if they can keep snakes~ and as I pointed out~ the mice don't seem to get it when I ask them to fall over and stop breathing.

If this bothers you so much by all means continue to be insulted. I really don't see the point in being so angry. Perhaps my first post was too flipant~ if that insulted you I appoligise (for my tone that may have insulted you~ not for my subject that I still think you are over reacting too)

Peace

Cheryl,

Good follow-up post. Personally, don't think you have a think to apologize for.

Thanks Gary. I really didn't come here to make a fuss. I've not been here litterally in months and I was bored so I dropped in to have a visit~ guess I shouldn't have chosed such a touchy subject to drop my opinions in!

Yeah whatever. You can make up all you want. It's your initial post i got upset about. And i don't really care how much you're excusing yourself afterwards.
You clearly enjoyed doing what you did and that pretty much made up my opinion about you. And i don't care how much your trying to tone down your initial post.

Let's just forget about it since it's not going anywere. You just kill whatever spieces you have at home but don't confront me with it. Such things don't belong on a forum of animal lovers if you think about it twice.

In my opinion at least.

I've added you to my ignore list so don't bother replying. This is my last post on this subject.

)
Deal

im calm now

CAV said:

1. Obesity is solely the fault of the keeper. You have learned (through experience) what makes for a more appropriate diet for your snake and have made adjustments. Kudos

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sorry gary, i suppose it was my fault for my Skitzy being on the large side, LOL, she was always an extremely active snake, fed her every 7-10 days, she had lived with another one, Missy for years, then missy had to be put to sleep, im sure you have read that post of mine somewhere and then she just stopped being active for some reason, this may sound silly but i think she may have noticed that her little housemate had gone, she didnt move and i continued to feed her as usual and thats when she put on the weight, however she is starting to be her normal skitzoid self now, (hence the name Skitzy) and she has lost a couple of ounces, and im feeding her every 14 days now, so when shes back to her active happy self, i will feed her 7-10days as normal.

2. You "accidentally" bred a snake twice. Twice that snake bore the brunt of your decision. Twice you were given bad advice. Now, it sounds like you have learned (through that experience) more appropriate husbandry skills that will prevent such an event in the future. Kudos again

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hmmm, this i felt absolutely terrible for both times, so didnt mean for her to go through any of that, i did get her the best treatment asap too. bless her.

I'm glad that you have found a good herp vet. In that you are fortunate. I on the other hand live in a city of more than 1 million and there is exactly 1 vet that is knowledgeable enough for me to trust the care of my animals. I have out diagnosed (correctly ) three others. Learn all you can from your Aussie friend. It is your animals that will be helped by that relationship.

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yes i do feel lucky that i found him actually, he is very good and a couple of reptile shops around my area use him too for all their animals. have been back and forth to him since may now, so we know each other pretty well and my snakes know him too. so thats good that they dont feel threatened by him.

One last suggestion: Don't get so defensive when others try to help. There is no doubt in my mind that your want to provide the best care for your animal that is possible. If you didn't, you wouldn't spend so much time around here.

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sorry gary, i do tend to take some things to heart. i shall not get so touchy when someone tries to help out in the future. i guess i just panick a bit, you know, lol, im quite an anxious person and i get quite defesive. not so good really, need to chill a bit
*thats daft Anny for ya*. LOL
thanx gary for all your help in the past.