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Killing Snakes
- Thread starter WAS1
- Start date
hurricanecorn
snakelova
Hey, I think you should let nature take its course. Offer the little guy a comfortable enclosure,water,a pinkie and just wait it out, you never know what will happen he might make a complete turn around and live. I dont think you should take it's life, just as I don't think any one should take your or mine thats for nature and destiny to decide.
Flygning
Axe'!
hurricanecorn said:
By taking a pet, we're already changing nature's course. We're also taking the responsibility to do everything we can to not let our pets suffer. If there is a sick child, we don't just let it sit in its crib, toss some milk at it, and hope it gets better. While I realize this isn't a true parallel, since we don't put down sick babies, we do what we can to make both situations more comfortable for those involved. If there are no other options for treating a snake that won't eat or is hurt or kinked or whatever, it is best for the animal to be put down. It ends the suffering. I love all of my animals, and I would only make this decision if there is no other choice, but it's something that has to be done sometimes.
EtherRex
Otter-Like
Why does everyone get so touchy about this subject? Euthanasia is a tool to ease / end suffering, just as surgery and medication are. As long as you are using it responsibly there is no problem.
If you havent got the stomach to end a life when neccesary then maybe you shouldnt be breeding animals to order in the first place.
And I personally consider the RSPCA to be an Animal Rights organisation as apposed to Animal Welfare. Some of their ruling council support the actions of terrorists such as P.E.T.A and the A.L.F. Scum.
If you havent got the stomach to end a life when neccesary then maybe you shouldnt be breeding animals to order in the first place.
And I personally consider the RSPCA to be an Animal Rights organisation as apposed to Animal Welfare. Some of their ruling council support the actions of terrorists such as P.E.T.A and the A.L.F. Scum.
Since I started this thread, I feel I ought to reply to what has been said.
Although euthanasia can be used to end the suffering of an animal, their is something else that needs to be considered.
Force feeding a snake that won`t eat is all well and good, and taking a young sick to the vet may prolong its life. But in the wild the animal would undoubtdly die. This is survival of the fittest, it gets rid of the weak, and keeps the genetics strong. I feel we should aim to copy nature.
A weak snake could end up in someones collection, breed and cause all kinds of genetic problems.
Surely these snakes should be put down as humanely as possible.
I know this dosen`t sound very sentimental, but its natures way, and the more closely we follow that, the healthier all our captives will be.
Although euthanasia can be used to end the suffering of an animal, their is something else that needs to be considered.
Force feeding a snake that won`t eat is all well and good, and taking a young sick to the vet may prolong its life. But in the wild the animal would undoubtdly die. This is survival of the fittest, it gets rid of the weak, and keeps the genetics strong. I feel we should aim to copy nature.
A weak snake could end up in someones collection, breed and cause all kinds of genetic problems.
Surely these snakes should be put down as humanely as possible.
I know this dosen`t sound very sentimental, but its natures way, and the more closely we follow that, the healthier all our captives will be.
EtherRex
Otter-Like
WAS1, I have to say im in complete agreement. If we select breeding stock primarily on the basis of colour or temperament and do not consider physical and mental health then, eventually, we will end up with the same situation as you see with pedigree dogs. Some breeds are notorious for a high incidence of blindness, deafness, delicate stomaches, liver failure etc. I would hate to see that happen with corns.
Personally, I would never keep a non-feeding hatchling alive through force feeding.
Personally, I would never keep a non-feeding hatchling alive through force feeding.
DeprivedSnakeLover
Lover Of The Bloods!
Sad... But thats life "Live and let live, unless it needs to die" tisk tisk... euthanasia i know this was said so many times but it is a tool. "if you dont know how to use a toll it wont help you" Said by my bio teacher.
buddithegreat1
New member
There are mutiple herp vet negative responses to Freezing as a humane method of euthanization (they can be found on the green iguana sites):
1. The refridgerator makes the reptile torpid, unable to move, but they are not asleep, when put in the freezer.
2. The external dermis and eyes freeze first forming ice crystals in the cells. In mammals this is a painful process, the reptile however, when put in the freezer cannot move or react to the pain because, being cold blooded, they have been rendered relatively immobile by being in the refridgerator. The brain and heart freeze slower, leaving a living animal to develop ice crystals through its body.
3. This used to be the preferred method for euthanizing reptiles, CO2 is the preferred method, per my herp vet, but in a reptile this takes a bit of time, as they can hold their breath and as their breathing slows down, so does their CO2 intake.
4. Lethal injection is also slow due to the fact that unless the snake is injected in the heart, the medicine slows down the heart so rapidly that it does not circulate the entire dose quickly.
I did extensive research on this issue during years of working with iguanas. Many having come to me VERY disabled and beyond saving.
I use injectible valium from the vet, subcutanious, and when sedated, ensure that I have a clean hit on the brain (not a tap- but flatten the whole head)
I would love to believe that they just fell asleep in the fridge and freezer and that would be so simple and kind, but its not the way it works and I am responsible for ending their lives as humanely as possible.
1. The refridgerator makes the reptile torpid, unable to move, but they are not asleep, when put in the freezer.
2. The external dermis and eyes freeze first forming ice crystals in the cells. In mammals this is a painful process, the reptile however, when put in the freezer cannot move or react to the pain because, being cold blooded, they have been rendered relatively immobile by being in the refridgerator. The brain and heart freeze slower, leaving a living animal to develop ice crystals through its body.
3. This used to be the preferred method for euthanizing reptiles, CO2 is the preferred method, per my herp vet, but in a reptile this takes a bit of time, as they can hold their breath and as their breathing slows down, so does their CO2 intake.
4. Lethal injection is also slow due to the fact that unless the snake is injected in the heart, the medicine slows down the heart so rapidly that it does not circulate the entire dose quickly.
I did extensive research on this issue during years of working with iguanas. Many having come to me VERY disabled and beyond saving.
I use injectible valium from the vet, subcutanious, and when sedated, ensure that I have a clean hit on the brain (not a tap- but flatten the whole head)
I would love to believe that they just fell asleep in the fridge and freezer and that would be so simple and kind, but its not the way it works and I am responsible for ending their lives as humanely as possible.
Susan
Go Ahead, Make My Day!
Oh how I love the resurrection of 4 year old threads!
Diazepam (valium) is a tranquilizer, plus has quite a few other uses. However, alone, it is NOT an anesthetic. Your iguanas are probably not fully anesthesized when you whack them on the head hard enough to flatten them. What is the "splash radius" of that particular method of humane euthanasia? And I would like to know the vet that has been prescribing that particularly abuse-prone controlled drug when there are other much more effective injectable anesthetics available.
I hold by my original statement. The most feasible method of euthanasia for hatchlings that are going to die a slow and miserable death by self-starvation or that are hideously deformed, especially when a breeder has multiple hatchlings that need euthanasia, is by freezing.
Diazepam (valium) is a tranquilizer, plus has quite a few other uses. However, alone, it is NOT an anesthetic. Your iguanas are probably not fully anesthesized when you whack them on the head hard enough to flatten them. What is the "splash radius" of that particular method of humane euthanasia? And I would like to know the vet that has been prescribing that particularly abuse-prone controlled drug when there are other much more effective injectable anesthetics available.
I hold by my original statement. The most feasible method of euthanasia for hatchlings that are going to die a slow and miserable death by self-starvation or that are hideously deformed, especially when a breeder has multiple hatchlings that need euthanasia, is by freezing.
Drewby07
curiocreatures.com
I have to agree with Susan here. This topic has come up more than once...and it's always a big debate.
Personally I do not believe that reptiles like a snake would feel pain while being frozen. I believe that on a cellular level, the nervous system itself becomes just as depressed as the rest of the body. a drop of only a few degrees would severely slow the function of the cells themselves....thus preventing or at least greatly decreasing transmission of any pain signals. As I stated....this is merely my personal belief.
I know with mammals there is a protein or enzyme that can be measured post-mortem that tells the amount of stress that the animal experienced during death. I don't know if there is a reptile analogue to this test...but if there is I'd sure like to see it!
Personally I do not believe that reptiles like a snake would feel pain while being frozen. I believe that on a cellular level, the nervous system itself becomes just as depressed as the rest of the body. a drop of only a few degrees would severely slow the function of the cells themselves....thus preventing or at least greatly decreasing transmission of any pain signals. As I stated....this is merely my personal belief.
I know with mammals there is a protein or enzyme that can be measured post-mortem that tells the amount of stress that the animal experienced during death. I don't know if there is a reptile analogue to this test...but if there is I'd sure like to see it!
mike17l
Self-Admitted Duckoholic
I'm a noobie and don't plan on breeding anytime soon. Also, I don't plan on euthanizing my only hatchling.
My question (out of pure curiosity) is, what about decapitation? Wouldn't that be painless and instantaneous, like with humans?
Decapitation, would be "painful" but if you take pliers and crush the back of the skull, that should be relatively "painless".
buddithegreat1
New member
Reptiles have a much different central nervous system than mammals. Decapitation is not humane. It does not instantly "kill" the brain so the reptile feels pain.
buddithegreat1
New member
Why Induced Hypothermia Is Inappropriate for Euthanasia[/B]
When reptiles are subjected to freezing temperatures, extracellular fluids begin to form ice crystals long before the reptile loses consciousness and pain perception. This extracellular freezing creates an osmotic imbalance, drawing water out of cells. The circulation is then impeded which inhibits prevents gas exchange, nutrient uptake, etc. Ice crystals begin to create small punctures in cell walls. For more information on euthanasia, see Stephen L. Barten DVM's article, Euthanasia of Reptiles.
Just food for thought
When reptiles are subjected to freezing temperatures, extracellular fluids begin to form ice crystals long before the reptile loses consciousness and pain perception. This extracellular freezing creates an osmotic imbalance, drawing water out of cells. The circulation is then impeded which inhibits prevents gas exchange, nutrient uptake, etc. Ice crystals begin to create small punctures in cell walls. For more information on euthanasia, see Stephen L. Barten DVM's article, Euthanasia of Reptiles.
Just food for thought
Susan
Go Ahead, Make My Day!
OK...I have over 20 problem feeders to euthanize this week-end. What would be YOUR choice...your "whack-a-mole" method after drugging them? I don't have an extra $200 sitting around (the cost of 20 injections of diazepam...and if I actually used an injectable anesthetic, the cost would be at least doubled) and since they are all the size of neonates, it's going to be extremely difficult to crush their skulls sufficiently enough on the first whack to kill them. I'll have to whack them several times in order to ensure they are dead...not very humane IMO. In the meantime, I have to find some reason to explain to my two young snake-loving children what it is exactly I'm doing to all those baby snakes. They will certainly hear all the whacking and be extremely curious. Children are that way, you know. So I'm sorry, but I'll have to use the method that has been used by reptile breeders for decades...ye ol' freezer...the only FEASIBLE method of euthanasia for this particular situation.
vetusvates
Gamaliel's Principle
Wow! Boy Am I Glad I'm Not You
If I were within driving distance, I'd ask you to let me come get the non-feeders. I have much, much patience with that sort of thing.
However, snakes do have different nervous systems than mammals do. They do not feel heat nor cold, per se. Within bearable extremes of heat and temperature they only feel sluggish when cool, and hyper-alert when warm. In hibernation, and estivation, the animals "consciousness" is not black and white like ours. By the time ice crystals were forming anywhere, a snake's diminished level of awareness (or consciousness, if you like) would be virtually unaware of its surroundings.
I would be against a prolonged slow cold death, and against a fast cold death. Personally, something in between would be like "going into that eternal sleep".
In all my years I've never been faced with euthanasia or the prospect of it. I have had several fairly surprise deaths, and that left me feeling depressed and irresponsible.
If I were within driving distance, I'd ask you to let me come get the non-feeders. I have much, much patience with that sort of thing.
However, snakes do have different nervous systems than mammals do. They do not feel heat nor cold, per se. Within bearable extremes of heat and temperature they only feel sluggish when cool, and hyper-alert when warm. In hibernation, and estivation, the animals "consciousness" is not black and white like ours. By the time ice crystals were forming anywhere, a snake's diminished level of awareness (or consciousness, if you like) would be virtually unaware of its surroundings.
I would be against a prolonged slow cold death, and against a fast cold death. Personally, something in between would be like "going into that eternal sleep".
buddithegreat1
New member
I believe that we will all take the information that is provided and determine if it fits and we are comfortable with our choices. As I said before I liked the idea of freezing until I was presented with other information in researching the topic.
We all do the best we can do to keep our reptiles from suffering. I pay to have my large iguanas euthanized by injection. It is a long slow process. I inject them before taking them in with the RXed vet med, and since I am not a junkie or a dealer, my vet has had no problem with the valium. In fact I am a mental health counselor and child protective worker. That said, I am not charged 20 per injection, as they need little to be asleep, and I do not need large amounts to sedate groups of reptiles.
The hammer is for small heads and I prefer not to think of it as "whack a Mole" but I can come up with a Beatles song that decribes the process if you wish.
I have never been adverse to the use of euthanasia when warranted ( in a past life-20 years ago- I was a vet tech at the track and put down many beautiful horses that could not recover from injuries).
This is an interesting topic.
We all do the best we can do to keep our reptiles from suffering. I pay to have my large iguanas euthanized by injection. It is a long slow process. I inject them before taking them in with the RXed vet med, and since I am not a junkie or a dealer, my vet has had no problem with the valium. In fact I am a mental health counselor and child protective worker. That said, I am not charged 20 per injection, as they need little to be asleep, and I do not need large amounts to sedate groups of reptiles.
The hammer is for small heads and I prefer not to think of it as "whack a Mole" but I can come up with a Beatles song that decribes the process if you wish.
I have never been adverse to the use of euthanasia when warranted ( in a past life-20 years ago- I was a vet tech at the track and put down many beautiful horses that could not recover from injuries).
This is an interesting topic.