Live or F/T?

I've answered your question as good as I'm going to. If it doesn't satisfy you, then I don't know what to say.

As I've mentioned - I personally am only using live for snakes that refuse f/t (a few kings, one gopher, and one corn) and for every other feeding with females I plan to breed the following year. Lack of muscle tone increases the odds of egg binding, and all my live feeders are noticeably stronger than my f/t feeders, the benefit to those females (reduced odds of egg binding) outweighs the extremely small risk of an evolution honed instinctual process going amiss to the detriment of the snake.

So basically then all the statements that have been made about watching and being ready are BS... You haven't got a clue what to do in such an event.....Like I thought....
If you have an answer come back and tell me. Otherwise please don't post saying that watching and being ready is some kind of answer as it's very missleading to our newb members....

FunkyRes said:

That's never been an issue. Occasionally a snake gets a bad grip (grabs the leg or whatever) but they always manage to coil nicely. In fact - I've witness a king coil a mouse without even biting it - because he had another mouse coiled that he was biting.

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And it seems you put the food in two at a time....How are you going to be ready for that going wrong......Your statement was a hungry snake is a good killer.....It's not so hungry after eating the first mouse is it, so where do you stand on this now.......

FunkyRes said:

I've answered your question as good as I'm going to. If it doesn't satisfy you, then I don't know what to say.

As I've mentioned - I personally am only using live for snakes that refuse f/t (a few kings, one gopher, and one corn) and for every other feeding with females I plan to breed the following year. Lack of muscle tone increases the odds of egg binding, and all my live feeders are noticeably stronger than my f/t feeders, the benefit to those females (reduced odds of egg binding) outweighs the extremely small risk of an evolution honed instinctual process going amiss to the detriment of the snake.

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For your f/t feeders, do you simply place the mouse in the tub/tank and leave it, or do you dangle and wave it about using tongs?

Also, accidents whilst using live mice don't solely occur when the snake is uninterested. A mouse/rat will fight much harder when it knows its on the brink of death, as opposed to simply being allowed to walk around unmolested and maybe have a bite after a while. As you said yourself, you're vastly experienced with all this, so tell me, do the live rodents that you feed attempt to kick, scratch and bite when they are captured? As Mike said, I'm pretty sure you don't have a sixth sense telling you when a rodent is going to bite, nor do you have the reactions to intervene in time.

For the females that constrict f/t I'm not feeding them live. Unfortunately some of them are quite lazy, and need live to constrict.

No, accidents don't solely occur when a snake is uninterested. However - that is when the vast majority of accidents that do happen and scare people into only feeding f/t occur.

Rats are more likely to fight back than mice, rats also are predators in their own right, rats are far more dangerous of a prey item than mice - I don't ever use live rats.

If you've ever seen a snake constrict live prey, you can see they put far more effort into it than when they constrict dangled prey. This is because they don't stop constricting until the mouse has stopped moving, and constrict harder with each movement of the mouse.

If you've ever caught a wild constrictor, you will feel it's strength compared to healthy captive bred of same size, they are much much stronger. Lack of muscle tone is cited as a contributing factor to egg binding, and it is logical - muscles are used to move the eggs down to the vent. Since our captive snakes are already weaker than their wild counterparts, if constricting prey can add to their muscle tone, then it makes sense that egg binding is reduced by live prey, as noted by the breeder mentioned in the Love book I quoted.

Sure, there is risk, but the risk really is over stated, and in the case of breeding females, I do believe that the benefit outweighs the risk. I didn't until I lost a female to egg binding, and did some research on the causes of egg binding.

No one is denying that there is a danger, but I can tell you that the vast majority of mice that are preyed upon never bite the snake, and the few that do, it rarely is anywhere near the head - and heals extremely quickly.

I'm sure that most of the "live feeding is always bad" is knee jerk emotional reaction to the very graphic pictures of what rats have done to ball pythons and boas when left with them unattended.

Even with WC snakes being fed for the very first time in captivity - my experience is they will eat very quickly or not at all. If the mouse does not invoke near instant feeding response, get it out of there.

Like I said I feed F/T. We should make a video and put it on here to show you how to do it...We tease our snakes and make them work for there dinner, our coastal will come over 2 ft out of its viv to get the prey and then with a bit of pulling it constricts long after a live mouse/ rat would be dead.... We start all our snakes easier than that, after all they are babies. But as soon as they get to sub adult size we work them.....Try it, then tell me about muscle tone... Plus regular handling and making them stretch for the next hold works them some more.... But I'm still waiting for your answer on how you stop this bite occurring... Or shall we let that one go as there isn't an answer?

Snake Dave said:

For your f/t feeders, do you simply place the mouse in the tub/tank and leave it, or do you dangle and wave it about using tongs?

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I guess it depends on the snake. I only have three, but they're all different. Thanagar will bite and constrict with the enthusiasm of a starving retic, I don't even think he has time to figure out the mouse is already dead. I totally work him, but it's hard because he's so fast sometimes. Amel boy needs to feel a little more comfortable, I stick him in an old pair of pants with his head sticking out, I can't work him unless he has the ambush advantage. FinFang is pretty hard to work, I usually give up and stick him in a feeding tub for 30 minutes or so.

Sometimes, when I'm busy they all get the feeding tub.

You work your snakes if you can.....Thats the way to do it......To give up and feed live and claim it's for the best is a cop out...... We all know our snakes, if we take the time to get involved...

I still don't buy your theory. Kathy Love also stated in her book that she noticed less dystocia when she moved her gravid females to larger tubs, allowing them more room to move around and exercise. When you quote...quote everything. Wild snakes will always be stronger than captive. They exercise daily, traveling miles perhaps in their search for food. Ours basically have an 84 sq. in. space to travel in. Not very big. I'll bet my snakes constrict f/t for as long as yours do. My Jaya type green tree python will hold a mouse for sometimes 30 minutes before he eats. My corns will routinely hold the mouse for at least 2-3 minutes, sometimes longer before they unwrap and eat. You were also stating that you place more than one live item in with your snake. That would worry me as well. How you can monitor two live animals and keep anything from happening is beyond me. Whatever works for you is fine. All my animals (and yes, I have more than a couple) eat f/t without issue. Wildcaught, cbb, and offspring...they all take it and they almost all constrict. There really isn't all that much exercise induced by the constriction. Crawling around for a long time is far more essential in my book.

Sorry Meg but I think we scared him off earlier... About 8 hrs ago to be precise...... He gave up then.... Shame really he was up for it until we asked for proof.... Oh well

Honestly, I'd rather be frozen to death...than beat to death. If you didn't kill it the first beating and have to do it over and over again...I'd rather be frozen to death. I don't think there is any "real" way of easy death. I think it all depend on the person... This is a real Controversial topic to get into. There isn't a right or wrong...just a matter of prefernce. I hope no one takes offence to this...

If there is a choice on how to die I choose, caught and shot in the back by a jealous spouse when I'm ninty

snakewispera snr said:

If there is a choice on how to die I choose, caught and shot in the back by a jealous spouse when I'm ninty

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Cool, I choose rock climbing accident at age 101.

Man, the above poster is an idiot.
I fed my snake live for about 2 years, that's how got her. I changed to F/K and she has no problems with it.
I had an incident where she did get a bad grip and the mouse bit her. No bad effects, just a few drops of blood squeezed out of her side. It was a bite and could have been worse. Nothing I could do.

I don't make these comments to support or refute anyone. I fed live lab mice exclusively to a decent-sized group of snakes (mostly corns) for many years without incident. I don't recommend it-- I'm just relating my experience. I currently own a hypo-tangerine Honduran milk and an African house snake that will not accept f/t. I've successfully converted many snakes from live to f/t over the years, but these two resist all the tricks. Neither will accept stunned prey either. In fact, they will sometimes kill a prey item, then become disinterested afterward because it's no longer moving. This isn't because they aren't hungry-- if you throw another live one in, they'll usually constrict and eat it. I really have no choice with these two.

And speaking of stunning prey, many herpers do this, but is there a humane method? I can't think of one. :shrugs:

snakewispera snr said:

After all I don't believe everyone knows everything about snakes not even Kathy Love, Roy Munson none of them...

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I don't know why my name is even mentioned here in the same sentence as Kathy's. Kathy forgot more about snakes this morning at breakfast than I'll ever know...

alan said:

Cool, I choose rock climbing accident at age 101.

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If there's a queue to meet the grim reaper I guess I'll be in the long one then.... LOL

This is getting silly.
Kathy love never stated that bigger caging made up for lack of constriction. She did state that she tries to get them to constrict the f/t prey, and I also stated that I am doing the same for females that are willing to do so.

Keep your snakes the way you want to keep them and feed them the way you want to feed them.

FunkyRes said:

Is there a risk? Sure, but there is also a benefit. A snake gets more exercise and more muscle tone when it has to hunt down and constrict its prey.

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I really have to disagree with you on this, this is an actually silly comment. I mean dead honest silly, how much exercise can a snake get in a tub hunting down a mouse? Really.
Have you tried alternative methods as swimming in your bath tub?

FunkyRes said:

This is getting silly.
Kathy love never stated that bigger caging made up for lack of constriction. She did state that she tries to get them to constrict the f/t prey, and I also stated that I am doing the same for females that are willing to do so.

Keep your snakes the way you want to keep them and feed them the way you want to feed them.

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But the problem with you, is you haven't given any scientific information as to why feeding live is better for your animals. Please give us some supportive information why its better, please. But all you have given is opinions. I have actually worked with animals that are wild caught and captive bred that don't constrict and they are equivalent in strength, in my eyes. but then again, I do not have a gauge to test their strength and neither do you.

My problem with feeding live animals is that still the animal is going to get harmed even from a stunned mouse. I had a MBK that refused to eat F/T and she was constantly getting nicked by the mice. She had a few scars that eventually are gone due to healing. But I was really happy the day she decided to go to Frozen.

FunkyRes said:

I also bet that a lot of very experienced "big name" herpers make use of live who just don't speak up about it because they've rather not be told that they are bad people for doing so.

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Now its devil's advocate time.
Well I know a Ball Python breeder who does swear to use only live but he is different and I doubt you are in his league as well. He has over 1000 animals at any one time. And he feeds live only. The reason is an economic one. It is actually cheaper to feed live than it is frozen for him. When you feed 400 snakes and only 250 decide to eat that night well guess what, you have wasted 150 Rodents.

But his setup is much different than the average keeper. He uses hides that have the holes on top. This way the animal will come from the top of the hide. Mice typically when released in a cage will run into the first hiding place they can find. Same hole as the snake. They will not go to the hides that have the hole on top. Instead they hide behind it. This way the rodent doesn't hide with snake and it doesn't come to harm later on down the line.

This guy has been in the industry for over 35 plus years. I am sure Kathy and Rich both know this man if I said his name. But there is no need to.
Cause typically most of us are not near his league. I personally keep over 50 some animals here ranging from a little hog nose to larger snakes.
Even with my numbers I have no need to feed live. I convert to Frozen, and if you really want to strengthen your corns, why not let them swim in the bath tub? I am sure they will get their exercise and are not harmed by teeth in the long run. I have sat here and disagreed with everything you said.

Plus if you are going to quote some scientific documents please do so and let us read that. But I have call BS here.
I am surprised people here had glossed over and not commented on the Corn snake injured due to being attacked by a mouse. But then again, I gave good hard evidence and but you have only given hear-say.

But the problem with you, is you haven't given any scientific information as to why feeding live is better for your animals.

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I was in the crowd that believed f/t should be exclusive until I had a case of egg binding and started looking for ways to decrease the liklihood of it happening again.

While I don't know of a way to quantitatively measure a snakes strength, there is a noticeable strength difference between my snakes that eat live only and my snakes that eat f/t. If you know of a way to scientifically measure muscle tone without killing the snake and dissecting it, I'm all ears.

Yes - a larger tub can increase their muscle tone as well, but it is not mutually exclusive. Wild snakes are stronger than captive, so it seems rather clear that no husbandry method is going to max out the muscle tone a captive snake can achieve, there is room for improvement.

The incidents of a mouse (note the word mouse) seriously harming a snake that wants to feed upon it is extremely rare, many keepers of large volumes of snakes have never had an incident.

Larger tubs, handling, etc. can all contribute to increased muscle tone - feeding live should not be done as a substitute for them, but I believe it can and does contribute to increased muscle tone above and beyond what can be achieved by those methods alone, based upon the strength of my live feeders in my collection vs f/t feeders.

Snakes I have that only eat live:

Male Cal King, WC as adult in 2000 - strongest king I have (though not as strong as when collected)
Female Cal King, history unknown but probably CB
Female Mexican Black King, captive bred
Female Pac Gopher, WC as adult in 2007 - she sometimes takes f/t when dangled, but more often than not, leaves them after constriction uneaten.
WC Pac Gopher, WC as neonate in 2008 - he took f/t initially, however, after a few meals he regurged one and never took a f/t again. He pounds live though. I do keep trying to entice him to take f/t, rats are a more appropriately sized meal for a large gopher, so I want him switched before he hits the 5 or 6 foot size.
Hypo het Lavender Corn - received as a known non feeder, accepts live, refused f/t. I have two of her siblings which also started as live only feeders but made the switch. The one that refuses f/t every time I try is noticeably stronger than her siblings.

I'm sure that does not qualify as "scientific" data - but really, I'm interested in what is best for my snakes. So given the lack of ability to collect what would pass scientific scrutiny, my "non scientific" observations are best I have to go on - along with my years of problem free experience feeding live exclusively.

The reader of this thread can read the positions presented and decide what they feel is best for their own husbandry, and for any reader who does not breed, I highly highly recommend f/t. If you do breed, I highly highly recommend that you try to get your female to constrict f/t before resorting to live. If they get lazy and figure out f/t is already dead and does not need constriction, then it very well may save your snakes life during egg laying to feed live mice under close supervision. That's all I have to say.

For those reading this thread - please note that those calling for "scientific" evidence have provided no scientific evidence of their own that their methods provide the muscle tone to reduce egg binding effectively enough that allowing constriction is of no benefit to muscle tone.

JanuaryLove said:

Honestly, I'd rather be frozen to death...than beat to death. If you didn't kill it the first beating and have to do it over and over again...I'd rather be frozen to death. I don't think there is any "real" way of easy death. I think it all depend on the person... This is a real Controversial topic to get into. There isn't a right or wrong...just a matter of prefernce. I hope no one takes offence to this...

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There are two proper ways to kill a mouse.
CO2 chamber and there is a quick and effective way to break their neck.
When a warm blooded animal freezes to death, it is very painful.