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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

What is the deal with Cinder?!
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Old 08-03-2022, 04:33 PM   #1
What is the deal with Cinder?!

I'm just curious if folks are interested in discussing Cinder, ...specifically, if anyone has opinions, or even better, evidence, that Cinder is in fact, incomplete dominant rather than recessive. This has been discussed in a couple places online previously, but I thought it might be interesting to see if anyone out there has anything new to add.

Personally, I have seen many heterozygous Cinder that clearly had phenotypic features that could not be explained by the presence of other gene mutations. I'm curious if others have had similar, or different experiences.

Thanks in advance for contributing to the discussion. Photos that demonstrate your points are always welcome
Old 08-03-2022, 06:06 PM   #2
Rich Z
Perhaps the ancestry from Florida Keys stock could have an influence? Corn snakes from the Keys normally seemed kind of different from the mainlander stock to me.
Old 08-03-2022, 08:44 PM   #3
Frank Pinello
Good point Rich.
But Iím on the fence on this. Iíve noticed by looking at vms, morph market, and my own hets that many times I can pick out the het cinders just by looking at the blotch edges (uneven rough edges) but Not with a 100% accuracy but probably 70% accuracy.
Maybe not as obvious as a incomplete dominant trait should be.
Itís kinda like het caramels corns.....the yellowish/orangey color in the hets could be from selectively breeding the most yellow caramels? or maybe a slightly noticeable incomplete dominant trait?
Actually, Iím not on the fence on this. Just over 50 years old and donít really care anymore!
Old 08-04-2022, 12:31 AM   #4
Rich Z
As for the Caramels, the original normal colored female that the line came from was one in a batch of wild caughts that caught my eye because of that unusual coloration. The original intent was to breed amelanism into her to see what the amels would look like with that influence. So who knows? Could have always been more than one gene lurking in there. That particular area seemed to be a relative hotbed for odd genetic material in the corn snakes. From North Port down to Lehigh Acres and over to Pine Island on the west coast of Florida seemed like the Bermuda Triangle of genetic oddities for corns.

Cinder (I still like "Ashy" ) was another pure luck thing coming from a wild caught female from a guy who lived in the keys. No idea of any sort of exact location for it, however. But I said all I know about the origination here anyway ->
Old 08-04-2022, 07:21 AM   #5
I can say that a sunkissed het cinder does have a change of head stamp over sunkissed not het cinder about 75% of the time.
Old 08-04-2022, 09:43 AM   #6
Thanks Rich for posting a link to the history of Ashy/Cinder.

I have seen Het Cinders that were quite obviously "Het Cinder", based on some of the markers described above, and some that were much more subtly Het Cinder. IMO, the markers for Het Cinder can be masked by the presence of other mutations (e.g., Sunkissed, Motley, etc...). This is certainly true for some other mutations. Buf for example, is dominant, but so variable at times I can hardly tell which hatchlings are displaying the phenotype. I don't think we should discount the possibility that Cinder is perhaps incomplete dominant because it does not consistently "shine through" when combined with other mutations. Hopefully some additional folks out there who have worked with Cinder, perhaps not in combo with too many other mutations, will chime-in
Old 08-04-2022, 03:14 PM   #7
Honestly, I think if het Palmetto can be considered incomplete dominant (where some of the hets are very hard to distinguish from non hets, especially if another homozygous morph is involved), then cinder should be considered incomplete dominant too. I have a much easier time spotting het cinders than I do het palmettos! (But that could be my lack of experience with palmettos).

With caramel, I don't think it's incomplete dominant, but I do think most caramels have a dominant, or incomplete dominant, 'yellow factor' that can often be seen in het caramels.
Old 08-04-2022, 04:51 PM   #8
Not to get too far off the Cinder topic here, but for what it's worth, I tend to agree with Olivia regarding Caramel being recessive. Lately, I have been noticing the degree of variation in corns labeled Caramel on MorphMarket. My eye sees at least 2 distinct "flavors" of Caramel for sale these days... ones that have brownish ground colors with essentially orange blotches (they essentially look like Buf), and then Caramels with "silvery" backgrounds and distinctly yellowish blotches. I suspect some of that variability is natural, and some is perhaps owing to Miami lines that were crossed with Caramel to lighten the background color(s), which I personally much prefer over the more orange ones.

And if by "Yellow Factor" you mean the potentially dominant mutation that supposedly originated in Joe Pierce's collection (i.e., his "Yellow Disease"), and that some of us are calling "Yellowjacket", I also agree. Although I have seen far fewer corns in total than Rich or a few others that frequent this site, I have 3 "Yellowjackets" and they do not look like any Caramel, or any other corns I've ever seen for that matter. It will be interesting to see what results if they reproduce next year
Old 08-04-2022, 09:18 PM   #9
Frank Pinello
I agree with Olivia on the het palmetto versus het cinder.
Old 08-08-2022, 08:54 PM   #10
I don't have any first hand knowledge on the Cinder issue so maybe I shouldn't offer input, just lurk, lol. But I've been working with Caramels for a long time now. There are definitely different Caramel looks, and I think Keys influence is a big part of it. Before I had to take a few steps back from breeding much for a while, I was working on selecting for what I thought of as silver and gold Caramels, with the silver background color and more golden saddles. That was before the term Miami Caramel was coined, which is a fine enough term but way overused. Most Caramel babies have grey background, after all.

Anyway, looping back (I had a point, I think lol), whether it's easily pointed out to someone else or not, whether it's caused by an associated allele or what, het Caramels are so often said to be identifiable, and to a practiced eye they are. But - devil's advocate here - it may be that although those with whatever "noticeable" traits are correctly IDed as het Caramel, there may be others who are het Caramel without said differences. That is, I think, the logic for Yellow Jacket, Yellow Disease, etc. Might something similar be going on with Cinder? Thoughts?

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