Scale less Corns anyone?

They look really cool that is for sure. I'm kinda interested in knowing what it feels like to hold one. I would also like to see the hard data on this morph. IF it doesn't adversely affect the snake in that condition, I see nothing wrong with it.

This is absolutely disgusting IMO. This mutation should never be propagated, as there is WELL-documented proof that this is a deleterious gene. This is not like propagating a color mutation - this is akin to skinless humans.

mactopa said:

a two headed snake can better hunt and eats more,
a snake without eyes can better smell
and a snake with two tails can better threaten
searching for explanations to upgrade things doesn't make them better :uhoh:

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I'm not saying it makes it better or worse - I'm saying we have yet to see proof that this is a horrible condition in snakes. People keep saying, how can the snake be happy - but I ask, how would the snake know otherwise? Its not like its scales were ripped out one by one, it was born this way. If the snake can live a healthy life then whats the problem? I wouldn't suggest trying to release them into the wild - but as Dean pointed out most amels don't survive in the wild because of their color. Yet we have no problem breeding them for pleasure.
Just something to think about.

Invictus said:

This is absolutely disgusting IMO. This mutation should never be propagated, as there is WELL-documented proof that this is a deleterious gene. This is not like propagating a color mutation - this is akin to skinless humans.

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That's a quite a stretch, IMO. They have skin. It's more like hairless humans (or dogs, cats, rats). How many people consider that cruel?

Personally, I think anyone calling this wrong or cruel is a hypocrite if they own any non-wild morphs or mutations of any species. It's the same thing, unless it can be shown that there's a real quality of life issue. A scale less snake doesn't know it was born without scales, so I'm sure it doesn't know it's different.

Invictus said:

This is absolutely disgusting IMO. This mutation should never be propagated, as there is WELL-documented proof that this is a deleterious gene. This is not like propagating a color mutation - this is akin to skinless humans.

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Huh??? This is nothing like skinless humans? People, you are missing out of something that is truly interesting and very unique in science. I think that this may be very similar to the original genetic trait that went from reptiles to dinosaurs to birds (yes, there are theories that dinosaurs evolved into birds). This is something bigger than coloration in an animal. This is a physical difference in the herp itself. Now the question is, does the animal loose moisture due to the lack of scales. It was the next step in the evolutionary scale between reptiles and amphibians, next to shelled eggs. This was to help retain moisture and afford protection to the elements. But typically, what elements do these snakes face? I would happen to guess zero.

But still, I think there is something there that would prove very interesting and would be fun to explore (and not in the pet hobby sense) but scientifically. There is a bigger picture here besides is it cruel or I just don't like the look of the animal.

tricksterpup said:

But still, I think there is something there that would prove very interesting and would be fun to explore (and not in the pet hobby sense) but scientifically. There is a bigger picture here besides is it cruel or I just don't like the look of the animal.

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You're right - the bigger picture is the $$$$$$ that will be made propagating a deleterious gene. If it's strictly for science, then I hope we see this horrid morph being sold for $10, which is what it's worth. Otherwise, please don't try to tell me that the people propagating this gene are in the least bit interested in the science of it.

I do not like the scale-less corns

I love the look of scaless reptiles and would happily own one.

More information I copied.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=17664165&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google

http://www.herper.com/strange/scalelesspics.html

Invictus said:

You're right - the bigger picture is the $$$$$$ that will be made propagating a deleterious gene. If it's strictly for science, then I hope we see this horrid morph being sold for $10, which is what it's worth. Otherwise, please don't try to tell me that the people propagating this gene are in the least bit interested in the science of it.

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Why are you so argumentative?? I am pointing out some facts here. Me personally, I am not into it as a breeder. I personally do not sell snakes but do shows for educational purposes. I personally know professional herpetologists and they are not in it for the money.
But then again, from your planned 2008 breeding, how many are $10 snakes?

Lenny, you posted two of the same links I did on the first page....

Wow.
I actually really like the look of the snake (at least from what I see in the pic)

The only thing that worries me is that they are definately not common, and therefore we do not know everything about them. Mainly, what caused this, health issues, caring issues, etc.

As far as being able to survive in the wild or in captivity, of course it would survive a lot better in captivity. Just like two-headed snakes (or any snake for that matter)... In the wild, two-headed snakes most likely would die fairly early on, but in captivity, the snake(s) could live a healthy long life. Comparing this anomoly with other genetic anomolys, such as the two-headed snake, I feel (and hope) that the snake can live a perfectly healthy life just like any other snake morph. The care may slightly vary, but that's no different then having to care for other breeds of snakes differently.

If there aren't any major health issues with scaleless snakes, then I say go ahead and breed them... I just hope that the guy will also come up with specific care instructions custome made for the scaleless snake.

Who knows, maybe a couple decades from now he can prove that there aren't any health issues with this specific trait, and then I might consider getting one. :grin01: But for now, I'll stick with getting an Okeetee (hopefully I'll be able to get him in the summer )

P.S. I think that snake is very adorable, and if I was 100% sure that there isn't anything wrong with them, I would ask you to sign me up for one

Oh, I also would love to hear from the guy too. This is a very interesting anomoly that I would love to learn more about... And what better person to learn it from then from someone who has first hand experience :shrugs:

Yes....its alovely snake, looks stunning.
But going on the 'derma' ball....it is probably messedup in some ways,
I think its cruel....it might be eating fine but do you know how it feels!!!!!!!!

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this one. I don't really like the look at all, but I would be interested to see one in person, and very interested to get to hold one. I am kinda uncomfortable with the idea. I am ALL FOR pattern and color mutations, but something about changing the physical structure of the animal doesn't sit right. (Of course, someone is going to argue about the semantics. Too bad, that's the best way I can think of to say it.) I'm also against intentionally producing two-headed snakes, eyeless snakes, and to a lesser extent, stargazers.

First off, from the scientific documentations I have looked at up to this point I saw two widely accepted theories:

1- the scales of the snake have a part in thermal regulation

2- the scales of the snake prevent major dehydration by minimal exposure of the actual skin.

Both of these strike me as very likely, not to mention the obvious shielding effect which is necessary if you stop to consider their habitat in the wild.

Technology and progress allows us to maintain the life of animals and human beings for that matter that under natural conditions would have died.
Do I believe scaleless snakes will be more prone to injury? quite certainly, do we know the exact effects of such a defect? no.
It doesn't matter what the price will be- it is the fact that it won't be us who pay it. The snakes will, and that's unfair, period.

We also do not know the full effect of pigment related defects, do they effect other systems? Can we know beyond a doubt that the defected gene is -only- responsible for melanin production and not something else as well?

In truth, we do not.

As for the two headed snake I saw earlier... I have to correct the comment stated that they will eat better. I have a study on such a specimen. a two headed california kingsnake. The neck's vertebra were compressed in a manner that caused the to break quite often- causing serious and constant pain. Also, they were incapable of eating anything besides pinkies at best. They also did not share a brain, meaning that each of them tried to move to a different direction- If this isn't the very definition of prolonged agony, I don't know what is.

I am against it, as I am not in favour of any experiments on animals unless they are used for specific medical purposes. It -may- end up to not effect them negatively in the long run- but it is a risk you take on their behalf. Because it won't really be you who suffers for it.

A good indication for things to come is today's dogs- the pure breeds which are now so deformed and share little to nothing with the original species. These suffer from many health issues, be it hip displasia, jaw and breathing problems, et cetera.

Brilliant post.

When I was reading the articles on water loss, it was stated in the veterinarian journal that:

...the skin of the scaleless animals was extremely delicate and tore easily.

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It's one thing to use these for scientific purposes to try to understand exactly why reptiles have evolved to have scales...It quite another to profit off of them...

I read on ReptileGeeks that these were actually imported from Europe. I'm a little confused at how this randomly appeared as a recessive "mutation" in a country where there are no Cornsnakes in the wild. I guess anything's possible, I just think it's odd.

I think the COLORING is wicked cool...It's a shame that alone isn't what this is...

I guess I just don't understand the point of having a scaleless snake...snakes have scales...that's just how the world works :shrugs:

blckkat said:

I'm a little confused at how this randomly appeared as a recessive "mutation" in a country where there are no Cornsnakes in the wild. I guess anything's possible, I just think it's odd.

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Genetic mutations do not need the "wild" to occur. Anywhere you have cornsnakes breeding, it can happen. Not being argumentative, just if you think about it, it's not odd at all. It really doesn't matter if there's any naturally occurring specimens, as breeding is taking place.

tricksterpup said:

Why are you so argumentative?? I am pointing out some facts here. Me personally, I am not into it as a breeder. I personally do not sell snakes but do shows for educational purposes. I personally know professional herpetologists and they are not in it for the money.
But then again, from your planned 2008 breeding, how many are $10 snakes?

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I'm not being argumentative, I'm throwing my perspective into the discussion. Just because it disagrees with yours, I'm being called argumentative?

As for my breeding program, nice try... but I never claimed to be breeding for the science of it. I already know the science of what I'm propagating, and now I'm doing it so that others can enjoy the morphs I produce, and I can enjoy some kickback from a hobby that sucks my bank account dry. But if this morph is going to be sold for thousands under the guise of "it's for the science", then I'm calling Bullsh!t.

Invictus said:

I'm not being argumentative, I'm throwing my perspective into the discussion. Just because it disagrees with yours, I'm being called argumentative?

As for my breeding program, nice try... but I never claimed to be breeding for the science of it. I already know the science of what I'm propagating, and now I'm doing it so that others can enjoy the morphs I produce, and I can enjoy some kickback from a hobby that sucks my bank account dry. But if this morph is going to be sold for thousands under the guise of "it's for the science", then I'm calling Bullsh!t.

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I truely wish I would have never posted this project on this board...I breed many species (BP's, Borneo's, JCP's, Womas, Hog Island Boas, Corn Island Boas) for others to enjoy just like you...I too enjoy the kickbacks from what I produce...I never said I was going to breed this under the guise of "it's for the science"...You don't like it fine - Don't buy...I do like it and that's why I bought into it...Keep on reading your books - Judging what you have not seen, held, kept or experienced for yourself...I know - I know - I'm trash for wanting a unnatural freak of a mutant snake...Let the lenching continue...
BT