the jerky dance and other quandires

Couple of quick questions (Sorry if this comes off as stupid! this is my first year breeding corns!)

The "jerky" motions that you see when you put two corns together- Do both male and female do this? What does it mean exactly- is it willingness to breed or is it just sort of a hello? Will two males or two females "dance" around each other when introduced for the first time, or is this strictly a male/female thing?

Will females ever climb atop males or other females?

I am utterly convinced that the person who came out and sexed my corns/taught me how to probe had no idea what they were doing and I have a lot of mislabled corns :/ I have a new probing kit coming on wednesday and I am going to start from scratch and probe everyone.

Oh dear- that title should be "quandaries"- apparently spell check doesnt work on the title

Two males together can do this - it's a dominance/aggression thing. It has been known for one proven male to penetrate another. It certainly shows who's boss! I've not seen the jerking behaviour reported between two females, but I guess it could happen on the same basis.

The behaviour between a male and female usually indicates a readiness to breed in at least one of them. With mine, it seems to be the males which initiates it. If the female responds with the same behaviour then it usually ends with a successful hookup, although this can still involve a lot of chasing around. If the female doesn't respond with the same jerking but just tries to get away, then I take this as a sign that she's not receptive and I separate them (although I normally give them half an hour together to be absolutely sure).

First thing - you really need to determine the true sex of your corns before putting them together. If you really need to know the sex of your corns before your probe kit arrives, you can post some pictures of the underside of the tails on here and we can try to help you determine the sex to the best of our abilities.

Here is a good read started by one of our members since it is your first year breeding. http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126082

I've observed jerky behaviour in both sexes. It's some form of communication which intensifies during the breeding period. You can provoke it by lightly stroking either sex. You can end up getting bitten by a male, if you do so!

Nanci said:

I've observed jerky behaviour in both sexes. It's some form of communication which intensifies during the breeding period. You can provoke it by lightly stroking either sex. You can end up getting bitten by a male, if you do so!

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I agree, I think it also depends on the season.... Jerky behavior can be a sign of the mating dance or a sign of dominance. Basically like a posturing to let the other snake know how much they dislike them being around. Hence, Like mentioned above you can stroke a snake into the jerky behavior...

Buzz

Buzzard said:

First thing - you really need to determine the true sex of your corns before putting them together. http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126082

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Just to clear something up- I'm not just randomly putting snakes together and trying to guess their sex based on their reactions. I had someone come out and "professionally" probe my snakes because I was just not comfortable doing it and didnt think I was doing it correctly. I've also asked sellers to probe for me before purchasing snakes as guarenteed sexes. I've been harboring under the impression that all of those probings were correct and my snakes were all properly labeled. Since this is the first time I have ever attempted breeding- I've only tried three pairings, and my questions are arising because I was surprised at the reaction of the snakes that I put together- while I believed to be putting a sexed male and a sexed female together their behavior seemed to indicate otherwise, which has made me question all of my snakes "probed" gender as most of them were done by the same person. For instance, I put a pair of snows together that had been probed by this particular person and was astonished to discover that the sexes were completely backwards after a sucessful lock...where the "female" had a hemipenes. The second pairing neither snake showed remote intrest in each other, and the third attempted pairing resulted in my "female" RO chasing the "male" around the cage with half "her" body lifted and curled in strike position while trying to push the "male" to the floor....which makes me think its actually two males.

Never the less, my kit arrives wednesday (if FedEx is correct) and I will be reviewing videos and reading instructions and will be probing EVERYONE (except the babies) on wednesday, and I will not be putting any pairs together until this is done and I am sure of sexes. What makes me really irritated is I have been collecting for years, and trusted other people to probe for me so that I could build the right pairs to produce my target goals. If my sexes are all screwed up, I could have waisted years of "careful" purchasing.

Lesson learned: if you want something done correct, learn to do it yourself.

I ended up buying a probe set. I think it's like 10 different sizes and I really need to find a different one because the smallest probe in the set is just right of adult corns only. I would like some a little smaller so that I could probe yearlings or two year olds. Also for some reason the two smallest probes are really short! When I probe a male the whole freakin' probe almost disappears inside the snake!

Anyway, other than that probing is pretty easy. I've found all my males the probe goes in really really deep. However with the females, not much past the tip will go in. Don't try to force it either. I actually probed one of my females on 5 different occasions to make sure the female reading was correct since everyone was telling me she was a female based on how long her tail was.

Males that probe male normally most definitely are male. However females are a little tricky. As sometimes you could have just missed the right spot. So I generally probe females a couple different times on each side just to make sure. Also use some sort of lube. Your snake will thank you lol. I use plain vaseline.

I wish there was someone who could teach me to pop babies though. I've watched the videos and still can't do it.

*Everyone was telling me she was a male based on how long her tail was.

Make sure you have someone to help hold the snake. It's pretty difficult by yourself.

WingedSweetheart said:

I ended up buying a probe set. I think it's like 10 different sizes and I really need to find a different one because the smallest probe in the set is just right of adult corns only. I would like some a little smaller so that I could probe yearlings or two year olds. Also for some reason the two smallest probes are really short! When I probe a male the whole freakin' probe almost disappears inside the snake!

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Crap. Was it this one? http://www.reptilebasics.com/sexing-probes-8piece

I'm going to be really irritated if so!

They look similar but mine didn't come with a case. They came in a clear tube with a blue lid. I think I ordered it off amazon two years ago. I can't seem to find it anymore. Even in my order history. Can't remember what brand it was either.

Good luck and I hope they aren't the same as mine. I would assume if they aren't to your liking that you could send them back. They are good probes I just wish the smaller ones were longer like the big ones. Don't really understand why they did that.

heatwave said:

I am utterly convinced that the person who came out and sexed my corns/taught me how to probe had no idea what they were doing and I have a lot of mislabled corns :/ I have a new probing kit coming on wednesday and I am going to start from scratch and probe everyone.

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heatwave said:

I had someone come out and "professionally" probe my snakes because I was just not comfortable doing it and didnt think I was doing it correctly. I've also asked sellers to probe for me before purchasing snakes as guarenteed sexes. I've been harboring under the impression that all of those probings were correct and my snakes were all properly labeled. Since this is the first time I have ever attempted breeding- I've only tried three pairings.

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A little confusing there heatwave, First he had "no idea" and now the person is a "professional". I understand not knowing the behavior, and I am so happy you learned your lesson.

May I suggest this probe kit....http://cornutopia.com/Corn%20Utopia%20on%20the%20Web/The%20Corn%20Snake%20Manual%20-%20Book%20Ordering%20Info.htm (towards the bottom of the page in the red package) Perfect for corns and this video for probing......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJQ69oeqdPI

The only other thing when probing is to lubricate the probe with some water... Not sure if the video states that or not, I havent watched it in a while.

Buzz

I have the red probes from Kathy. They work fine, but they are REALLY thin. I'd actually love to have the set from RB, too! Just to have a variety.

I was lucky- Kathy and Bill trained me to probe, in person!

Nanci said:

I was lucky- Kathy and Bill trained me to probe, in person!

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Lucky dog....

We actually met Bill, and purchased our kit from him and got our book signed too. But Kathy was busy and out of town . But Jamie learned while working at the Tenn and Florida Aquariums, so I had a great teacher. And, Walter Smith taught us to pop... Thanks Walter.

Buzz

Buzzard said:

A little confusing there heatwave, First he had "no idea" and now the person is a "professional". I understand not knowing the behavior, and I am so happy you learned your lesson.

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Hence the quotation marks around the word professional in my post....

The person who came out to assist me is a local breeder who responded to an add I placed asking for help. He seemed very professional and seemed to know exactly what he was doing, however only now, after viewing the results of my attempted pairings, I am realizing that he may have made mistakes and/or misrepresented his level of knowledge. I appologize if that wasn't clear....?

Ok- I probed. (kit came today)

The ones I thought were incorrect based on behavior...they all were exactly what I thought they were. The first pair was male/female (reverse of what I was told) second were two girls next were two boys. The biggest blow was my pretty amel girl I was so looking forward to breeding this year was a boy other then that everyone else was correct. I'm definitely male heavy but guess they'll just be happy pets

I've ended up with females that turned out to be males THREE times! Well- you never know how your breeding plans might change in the future.

When I got my probe set I'm happy to say that I had only got the sex of 2 snakes wrong based on looking at tail shape.

I'm also male heavy. I plan on getting some ladies for one of my kingsnakes soon.