I NEED HELP ASAP!

NonVenomous said:

Sadly, it's not the 3rd, it's the 5th person The Board of Inquiry has been updated.

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Bronny:

Thanks for updating the BOI thread. I guess I'm person #2 who was refunded without proof. :shrugs:

1) I will not follow this on BOI, not because I received a refund but because I do not think it's a fair process. Evidence Josh's decimation. :smash:

2) I am very concerned about what caused the death of the three snakes I had because I still have one from Doc and the others I have were exposed to the dead ones.

3) I believe there may be more people that have suffered a loss but have not found these threads or just haven't connected the dots. Maybe they think it was their fault because "no big breeders have had issues."

4) I did not go to the forums first. I contacted Doc first and was told it was my fault because I'm a beginner. I am far from a beginner and I have never had any pet I have owned die because of something I did or did not do.

5) I did receive a full refund for the snakes that died, including pro-rated shipping costs. I still would not do business with Doc because of the way he handled himself in the e-mails. He apologized and I accepted but there's plenty of other breeders around. Just my personal preference. I understand that he has personal issues right now but I can't understand why a breeder would not be jumping all over this to clear his name.

Now, as I stated before, I wonder if the deaths are limited to young corns. I have not heard of an established adult corn dying nor have I heard of a non-corn dying. I have an MBK from Doc that is doing fine. I also have not heard of what ever is the cause being passed along to a non-Doc snake. Please correct me if you know of any of the above happening.

At this point it's not about bashing Doc. It's about finding an answer so we don't lose any more snakes. Hopefully we'll have an answer soon.

Wow... I definitely believe all this is due to something on the breeder's end. I can see maybe one snake dying, but three.... that's just too much. There is something wrong... I hope that this gets cleared up and Bob you get reimbursed for all your trouble you are going through. I am so sorry this has happened. I know you are stressed... Just know that we are all here behind you and hope you get this cleared up soon as it could have happened to anyone. Just so sorry it happened to you. Hopefully, things will get better. You have friends to lean on and if you want to talk....you can do that to. Just keeping an eye out on the outcome of this very sad and tragic situation. Wish you all the best....

For what it is worth, people have apologized to Josh on BOI for how they spoke to him.

While I now believe that Josh is not *entirely* at fault, his claim that they would not grow cannot be proven as an issue with Doc's snakes due to his sporadic feed schedule. Due to financial situations, the clutch I hatched last year ended up on a once every 10-14 day schedule, similar to his. Guess what? The 8 gram hatchlings got up to a whopping 12 grams over the course of 9 *months*. This is why people were unwilling to believe his other claims, especially when he declared the cause of death to be crypto but had never taken the snakes to the vet, nor had necropsies done.

The OP on the other hand is doing everything correctly. I'm anxious for those test results, and worried about the people who may have bought snakes from Doc that aren't on the forums. How contagious is this disease? How does it spread? Do their entire colonies have it now? How long does it stay viable in the environment? It makes me glad my collection is "closed" because I have the genes for projects I want already and will only be getting 1 new addition next year from an outside source.

I can say adult snakes I got from Doc last summer are doing great. I got two Miami's. So maybe it was just a bad clutch of eggs? Did they all come from the same clutch? I really dont think Doc would send sick snakes on purpose.

I read that entire thread on BOI last night. What a sad sad circus that was. I'm ashamed of the way some of our members here acted on that thread.

Aside from that, I truly hope the cause of all of this is discovered and no one's collection becomes endangered. Good luck to all of you involved in this.

No, the hatchlings are not all from the same clutch, I have lost hypo sk, caramel stripe het butter, and amel het hypo fire. The male that is sick now is another amel het hypo fire. So far he is still hanging on. I did update the breeder on everything yesterday I am still debating on the reply. I will continue to update on here and as soon as necro results are back I will post them on here.
Take care all
bob

Bob, that is so sad..... I hope things turn out better, but from what I have been reading, it doesn't look like it will. What a shame.... I feel for you. I just hope none of this gets into your original collection. It seems that it's all do do with the new clutch so best of luck. I hope you at least get your money back or something... Cheers.

crotalis40741 said:

No, the hatchlings are not all from the same clutch, I have lost hypo sk, caramel stripe het butter, and amel het hypo fire. The male that is sick now is another amel het hypo fire. So far he is still hanging on. I did update the breeder on everything yesterday I am still debating on the reply. I will continue to update on here and as soon as necro results are back I will post them on here.
Take care all
bob

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For the record, I lost Caramel Stripe (Het Butter), Butter Stripe and Hypo Bloodred (Het Amber).

I am so sorry for what is happening to you crotalis. I feel partly responsible for not keeping good records and get people the proof they wanted when I took Doc to the BOI. If only I had better evidence and the money to have my own deaths tested this could of all been figured out back then. Maybe you and the several other people that are having problems with his animals would not of even bought them from him. It is still funny that Doc doesnt think anything is wrong on his end. He refuses to have anything of his tested for anything. If I was a well known breeder like Doc with a collection the size of his I would want to do anything and everything to find a answer.

My losses were 2 Amels (Het Hypo/poss het Lavender,stripe), Goldust Motley (het Stripe), Lavender Motley (het Stripe), Ultramel (Het Caramel/poss het Blood). Thats five on my end in the course of several months about one a month. I have had no issues with any of my other animals from any other sources. I have also in 17+ years of keeping and caring for snakes never had such problems with animals. I do still have 5 of Doc's 2009 babies and a adult from him. All are doing fine except the fact that the adult wisses. All are also still in quarantine. I had to set up a second quarantine for the animals I got back in Aug at the Daytona Show.

By my count we are around 25 snakes and 8-9 people with the same problems with the same breeder. Vetusvates and I recently tried to contact Doc. Vetusvates got a little out of him but it was just the same old same old there is nothing wrong with his animals. He would not even respond to me. But what I had told him is that maybe he is not totally at fault and that I apologize for how far that BOI went. Things were said by many parties myself included that just didnt need to be said and it was childish. I told him that maybe it is the way he is packing these snakes for shipment as some have not been happy with how he does this. Maybe it is even where he is dropping the snakes off. Maybe someone there does not handle the packages with care. Maybe that someone really hates snakes and knows that is what is in the boxes and intentionally bashes the boxes around. (all my opinion and just a idea)

It could also be the water on his end. He could have really bad water. In a fish tank that is dirty, disgusting, and completely unhealthy for the fish some will adapt to that kind of water quality and still thrive. But then when the water is changed, tank clean and fresh clean water put in the tank the fish goes belly up because it is a shock to its system. So maybe this is what is happening. We are giving our snakes clean/good water and they are used to bad/dirty water. (yet again just a suggestion and my opinion)

There could be a thousand reasons why this is happening. I hope that proper tests are done and a answer is figured out. What I do know is with 25 dead snakes and counting between 8-9 different people something is wrong on Doc's end. I think he knows it to. Kinda funny that just as soon as all of these people come forward with problems he now has a good part of his collection for sale. I can not even look at the for sale thread without seeing dozens of his threads.

Again I am so sorry for your losses. I was really into the Goldust Motley and Lavender Motley I got from Doc. Of course the ones you really like are the ones to go. I really do feel for you. Good luck with the rest of your animals.

Bob, as I told you yesterday I think Docs response to all of this is a load of crap! He needs to step up and stop pushing the blame for 20-25 dead snakes on everyone else. He was only worried about you bringing this up on CS.

crotalis40741 said:

No, the hatchlings are not all from the same clutch, I have lost hypo sk, caramel stripe het butter, and amel het hypo fire. The male that is sick now is another amel het hypo fire. So far he is still hanging on. I did update the breeder on everything yesterday I am still debating on the reply. I will continue to update on here and as soon as necro results are back I will post them on here.
Take care all
bob

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I don't know if I am really allowed to post this here or not, but everyone really needs to read the last couple of posts on the BOI by Nonvenomous.

What a mess!

It's a crying shame that it took so many snakes dying and so many people to step forward before people started to believe that something serious is wrong. Seems it totally defeats the purpose for the BOI thread if people are affraid of stepping forward for fear of being attacked for 40 pages.

Something needs to be done.... all these snakes dying... I just can't believe all the trouble people are having with this one breeder. What a shame. It's too much to be chalked up as coincidence as far as I am concerned.

25 dead snakes. Wow.
I hope this is contained and doesn't spread to anyone else's collections.

I hope all is doing well this evening, just an update the male amel that regurged is still alive and so are the females. I have made a decision that after the necro test results come back and if the snakes are safe to, I am going to find them all pet homes including the adult I have from the same source. At this time I can't in good conscience send them to someone else and have them die on them. They will go local if I can safely rehome them. If it comes back something bad then I will have to decide upon what route to take with them. I just feel they no longer have a place in my collection.
I hope everyone has a great weekend.
bob

I think that is your best bet.... get them away from your original collection... I hope that you will not purchase any more snakes from this breeder again... What a waste of time, money, and heartache. I think this is a lesson for everyone.... be careful who you buy from and do a lot of research on the breeder. It's a sad and tragic story.

Hello all, just an update.
I got the formulin today and the snakes will go out for testing Monday morning.
Take care all and thank you again
bob

Super! Thanks for updating, Bob.