Boa keepers- be aware

Hey all,
I today learned something which may or may not be common knowledge. I think that there are many keepers who aren't aware of this.

Boa Constrictors have a very difficult time digesting and dealing with large quantities of fat.
Many feeder rats are bred to bigger and fatter- however, the fat stores these rats have can cause serious health issues to Boas.

For instance, a friend of mine from another forum lost 30,000$ worth of Boas because of using such rats.

He says that rats that are either Zucker rats/het for the gene/related are rats with high stores of fat and should not be fed to Boas. In his experience, the safest route is to go with not fat looking- pure white rats.

I started looking into this because sadly, a friend of mine apparently received such rats and now a Boa of his is exhibiting the same symptoms as the ones who died in the other forum's member's collection.

The usual routine goes: you feed the Boa, she regurgitates and goes into severe shedding cycle. Once out, her colors look as though they have drained away... from that point, the snake can die within 2 weeks or so.

Now, the color draining seems to be most visible on hypos...
This snake which I am about to show was orange, just like my Solaris... and this is how she looks tonight- after regurgitating and shedding:


As you can see, the color almost completely drained away.

We weren't aware of the possibility or how the symptoms show...
and now it may be too late.

The snake will be quarantined and treated but... at this stage it's kind of advance.

My friend from the forum believes that the high stores of fat hasten the reproduction of certain bacteria in the Boas digestive system- these bacterias exist there naturally, but balanced. When this balance is undone, the snake is harmed.

I don't know how many of you know this, or if it's common knowledge or not... but I thought I should share- so that this won't happen to you too.

Thankfully I never fed my snakes with abnormally large rats... I will be far more cautious in the future... as for my friend though... I hope he doesn't end up losing the Boa :/

Wow.... I was not aware of this at all. Thank you for posting this or I could have never known about it. I'm currently shopping around for a Brazilian Rainbow Boa. If you have any other lesser known tips i would love to know about them now instead of when a problem arises.

MalinoisK9 said:

Wow.... I was not aware of this at all. Thank you for posting this or I could have never known about it. I'm currently shopping around for a Brazilian Rainbow Boa. If you have any other lesser known tips i would love to know about them now instead of when a problem arises.

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Just make sure you learn about their maintenance- they are very susceptible to inaccuracies and instability of temperature and humidity... a wholly different snake when compared to colubrids.
Beyond that... I learn as I go, I try to get as much info as I can but... as you plainly see, there are always surprises.
I also advise you read about IBD- Boa keepers should learn about that as well.

I don't own any boas YET, Oren. But thank you for the information.

Yea i've been studying a bit on humidity and how to regulate various levels as I am going to build an enclosure for a Emerald Tree Python this winter. (My hands will get a few new scars I suspect, but can't be as bad as the K9's I live and work with). Do you use a fogger/mister or just mist with a bottle? We are also looking into getting our first venomous snake, a Atheris Squamigera, so that will be an interesting change to our collection.

The_Thunderer said:

I don't own any boas YET, Oren. But thank you for the information.

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Boas are the best, IMHO, but... they are also not as "advanced" evolution-wise when compared to the Colubrids that came after.
This apparently has a certain cost... making them a bit more specific and less tolerant to certain mistakes.

MalinoisK9 said:

Yea i've been studying a bit on humidity and how to regulate various levels as I am going to build an enclosure for a Emerald Tree Python this winter. (My hands will get a few new scars I suspect, but can't be as bad as the K9's I live and work with). Do you use a fogger/mister or just mist with a bottle? We are also looking into getting our first venomous snake, a Atheris Squamigera, so that will be an interesting change to our collection.

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I haven't kept an ETB, Squam or even a Rainbow- I did own a Green Tree Python for over a year though... and they are not very different from ETB's... and are more fragile than Rainbows technically... Hots aren't my thing so I can't really help there- I do suggest getting yourself the book called "Dangerous snakes in the vivarium". It's like the "bible of hots".
I used to spray water manually- it also helped me keep an eye on the snake rather than forgetting about it while allowing the mist to be done automatically. What should guide your decision should be the weather where you will be putting the viv- will constant misting be needed or will the twice per day suffice?
Either way I do suggest getting an automatic misting system which you will be able to turn on if you go for a vacation or somesuch- else you're pretty homebound.

I googled that book and was unable to locate a place that sells it. Do you know of any online book stores that would carry it? I tried the most obvious, amazon.com, but they didn't have it.

Yes they do, I ordered it from there....
http://www.amazon.com/Venomous-Snak...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253223408&sr=8-1

sorry, got the name a bit wrong. I have a copy of it so I checked it

God knows what I will be doing with it... I thought about learning Toxicology a few months back...

Ah well...
I would have offered it on Ebay or something but the shipping cost would make it not worthwhile for pretty much anyone.

I guess that if I bought it, it will have a use some day

ive just seen this pop up on another forum. and its all the same thing, snake sheds and comes out weird. a lot of people think it looks cool, i think it looks sickly. someone also stated they switched their rats. once i have to start going into bigger rats im gonna just switch to bunnies. so much better for the animal. people always say then theres no fat on them for the animal, but you could always feed a couple rats every once in a while also. and the reason theyre so lean of a meat for humans is we dont digest bones, eyes, brains, and the organs.

im glad you brought this up. my next snake is a boa. a salmon 100% het for kahl from rich ihle at salmonboa.com. i cant wait for them to be able to get her out to me. shes an 08 so already up on small rats.

Ah alright. Thank you very much. I'd definitly put that on the reading list. I'm trying to take it slow and learn as much as I can and talking to others for some experience tips before diving right in to the Hots. But I am definitely getting excited to have "that one" snake that is hands off. Great conversation starter for sure... but aren't all snakes?

pwargcm said:

ive just seen this pop up on another forum. and its all the same thing, snake sheds and comes out weird. a lot of people think it looks cool, i think it looks sickly. someone also stated they switched their rats. once i have to start going into bigger rats im gonna just switch to bunnies. so much better for the animal. people always say then theres no fat on them for the animal, but you could always feed a couple rats every once in a while also. and the reason theyre so lean of a meat for humans is we dont digest bones, eyes, brains, and the organs.

im glad you brought this up. my next snake is a boa. a salmon 100% het for kahl from rich ihle at salmonboa.com. i cant wait for them to be able to get her out to me. shes an 08 so already up on small rats.

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Great choice of both snake and breeder.

As for the rabbits.... it may be a better option- but in Israel a lot of things that seem integral and common to you are either rare, extremely expansive or simply non-existing.
So we have to do with what we've got

dont wanna barge in on this topic. but id like to add a couple other forums i found surfing around before on this topic. ive never had this problem. but when im researching new animals i surf back and read almost every topic for a few hours a night. its like reading a book. so much good info can be brought up off forums. and i had a bad boa experience before with a bcc. and i got her back on her "feet" and my buddy wanted to trade, he knew her problems but he had a beardie he didnt want but was raising after a friend of his gfs did a impulse cute buy. so i did the trade and shes doing good and so is the beardie. but now im back up on my feet and willing to try again with a bci and after much more research. thats how i happened acrossed these. sorry for the long story lol.

http://reptileinsider.com/uploads/showthread.php?t=7216

http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/boas/56992-boa-changing-color.html

im not posting these links to advertise. only to make others aware of this.

Kokopelli said:

Great choice of both snake and breeder.

As for the rabbits.... it may be a better option- but in Israel a lot of things that seem integral and common to you are either rare, extremely expansive or simply non-existing.
So we have to do with what we've got

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yeah. i am planning small breeding projects on what i want in my collection and think is awesome. im not in it for the money. i just like really good looking snakes. yeah i understand you gotta do what you gotta do. but as long as you dont have to feed off of sickly rodents. id rather feed more smaller rodents, than a massively fat sick one.

Iv'e been learning about Boas for a good couple of years, including book reading.
Some info is not obtainable if you don't know exactly what you're looking for- or if you're lucky.
It's an ongoing discovery thing... no empiric research was made so it's very inconclusive.

WOW... That's really disturbing. Thank you for posting that information.

I've heard from a friend (CaptBogart) that African Soft-Furred rats are also VERY bad to feed to boas as well.

Kokopelli said:

Iv'e been learning about Boas for a good couple of years, including book reading.
Some info is not obtainable if you don't know exactly what you're looking for- or if you're lucky.
It's an ongoing discovery thing... no empiric research was made so it's very inconclusive.

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i think the boa book for most modern boa subspecies is the complete boa by vin russo. such a good read. ive read it 3 times front to back. and im almost done with my 4th. my parents think i have a problem. i just like learning. and i dont want to have another problem with what i did before. i know his book doesnt have everything. but its a good starting line. and if you go to redtailboas.com
they have a free pdf download that is a really good guide to keeping boas. and jeff ronne's guide to breeding boas. another good read.

With Colubrids are there any common feeder rodents that should be avoided? My Taiwanese will eat anything that she can kill and stuff down, and I've never had an issue. Is there rodent to look out for? What about our Corn?

You should all consider yourself lucky- being a part of a big herp community like the one in the USA assures a great access to an immense reservoir of experience and knowledge.
Over here we are very limited. Many phenomenas happen singularly so no one ends up talking about them... there's really no one to ask.
A lot of people here don't know English well enough to be able to read English forums- I have been exposed to English since I was really young... I read English more frequently than I do Hebrew- so that's an advantage I enjoy but many of us don't.
A lot of times, it falls on me to "import" information and pass it on... it's nigh impossible though to encompass -everything-. And I am not really getting any sort of help with that...

My best advice- go pester breeders at expos- that's one priceless option I mourn I don't have

pwargcm said:

i think the boa book for most modern boa subspecies is the complete boa by vin russo. such a good read. ive read it 3 times front to back. and im almost done with my 4th. my parents think i have a problem. i just like learning. and i dont want to have another problem with what i did before. i know his book doesnt have everything. but its a good starting line. and if you go to redtailboas.com
they have a free pdf download that is a really good guide to keeping boas. and jeff ronne's guide to breeding boas. another good read.

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I had to order my books from Amazon- those books aren't available here
The Complete Boa Constrictor and others however don't cover niches like this... they simply refer to basic husbandry... the books end up chewing on the same info.
Have read Clay English E-guide(the one you mentioned)- indeed a good starting point, but again, you are comparing basic husbandry info one can get anywhere to info like this which is only obtained in dark corners of the web