A question about temp probe placement

[Nroc]

Using a UTH, it is recommended by many to use a thermostat with probe attached to the bottom of the tank above the UTH center.

I don't understand why we are taking our reading at this point. I have seen 10-15 degree differences in temperature between the bottom of the tank, and the top of the substrate.

I have a digital thermometer with probe, and when I place the probe under the hide so that the hide holds it down against the surface of the substrate, I get a reading between 81-85.

But when I take a reading from down below, it is over 95 degrees. Before I started using a rheostat, it would get up to 130 degrees under the substrate, and the substrate surface would be close to 91-93 or so.

The same thermometer also keeps an inside temperature as well as the probe. This is usually about 74-79 degrees at most even with my light on. Turning the light on will also cause my surface substrate temps to soar up to the upper 80s, and if I run the light at full power, I can get the air temps up to the low 80s (but my surface substrate temp gets over 90 when I do this).

I have not found my balance yet, and I can't figure out why I should be taking temp readings from so far below, when a good bit of that heat is dissipated through the substrate. I want to be sure that my snake is in a good temp range, so please provide some insight on what my temps should be like (I have 3 temps that I am monitoring at this time: substrate top, substrate bottom, air temp above surface)

I don't want to use a thermostat to control the UTH. I would rather use the rheostat only. Given this approach, what should be my ideal surface substrate, and deep substrate temperatures? Please keep in mind that I am experiencing a 10-15 degree drop in temp between the deep substrate and the surface.

So far, I have kept the surface above 80 degrees and I try to keep it below 90 degrees. At night, my house can drop to 66 degrees as this is what I have the thermostat set to do after 10 pm. My goal to this point was to maintain a surface substrate temp at least of 80 degrees during the 66 degree periods. When we are home, it can be 69-71 degrees inside and the substrate can be in the lower to mid 80s.

 

[Tracee]

I can't figure out why I should be taking temp readings from so far below, when a good bit of that heat is dissipated through the substrate

This is because the snake will burrow to the hottest part. You can rely on them to regulate their own temperature, and burrow to get warmer if necessary, for example when digesting. However, you can't rely on them to move quickly enough when they're too hot, which can at worst result in burns.

what should be my ideal surface substrate, and deep substrate temperatures?

Most people here recommend aspen as the ideal substrate, but if you can't get it or don't want to use it, just run a search on here and lots of alternatives will come up - some people even use newspaper.

As for temps.. The hottest place in the vivarium should be mid-high 80s. As you identify, the hottest place is right underneath the substrate, and this is where you should take the reading. As I mentioned, you can rely on the snake to burrow to the heat source when it needs it, but not to move when it's too hot, so it really is the hottest temp reading that you want to be most concerned with.

Hope this has helped clear things up. If I've missed anything I'm sure someone else will pick it up!

 

[Nroc]

This is because the snake will burrow to the hottest part. You can rely on them to regulate their own temperature, and burrow to get warmer if necessary, for example when digesting. However, you can't rely on them to move quickly enough when they're too hot, which can at worst result in burns.


Most people here recommend aspen as the ideal substrate, but if you can't get it or don't want to use it, just run a search on here and lots of alternatives will come up - some people even use newspaper.

As for temps.. The hottest place in the vivarium should be mid-high 80s. As you identify, the hottest place is right underneath the substrate, and this is where you should take the reading. As I mentioned, you can rely on the snake to burrow to the heat source when it needs it, but not to move when it's too hot, so it really is the hottest temp reading that you want to be most concerned with.

Hope this has helped clear things up. If I've missed anything I'm sure someone else will pick it up!

So the potential for a dig is the reason that I sacrifice warmth at the surface of the substrate where my snake spends 99.9% of his time? My substrate surface temps would dip below 80 if I put my tank bottom temps to the mid to upper 80s.

My snake has not bothered to dig at all yet. Does this imply that he does not seek out more warmth?

Also, why do snake move to warm areas to warm up, but not to cold areas to cool down? Why is this a "one-way" street?

 

[Tracee]

Of course they move to cool areas to cool down. Some people post here very worried that their snake never seems to be on the warm side. You just can't trust that they won't burn themselves if it's too hot - I don't know why!

The simple answer to your first question is, I suppose, that your snake is happy on top of the substrate as the temperature is more suitable for it there. They LOVE to burrow, and I'd always prefer to err on the side of caution as regards too high temperatures, personally.

 

[Feanturi]

They move a lot back and forth as needed. We just don't have 24/7 to watch them. I have shot some night video on occasion to watch and see how they behave when I am out of the room. They are more active than I would have thought! They definitely regulate, back and forth. Having the upper temps is available for when they need it, ie:during digestion. Most of my snakes, all species, seem to use the cool sides more than the warm, except after feeding. And they do fine if made to burrow for the warmest spot. If your snake isn't digging for the heat then it probably is warm enough on the surface, and that isn't really a good thing. Keep the heat downwards in the substrate, it's better than having them get too hot and risking a regurge, burns or death. And believe me, death is a very real possibility, at temps over 90. And that is why you measure at the glass. It needs to be the hottest part of the tank, and it needs to never exceed 90 for the health of your snake. I have a very experienced Reptile keeper friend who lost a large amount of his collection due to a heat rise to the upper 90's. He was heart broken and devastated, and it only took half a day of high temps with someone who pays attention, and is very good at keeping.

I like coconut coir for substrate. It holds moisture well, and heat too. If the power goes out it will hold heat for a couple days in the 70 range even if the air temp gets cold. The snakes absolutely love it. As soon as I change it they immediately burrow in, even the older snakes that don't spend much time under it normally. Aspen gave me a head ache with keeping proper humidity, and not developing mold. It works better in wood cages than glass IMHO, but if a water bowl gets sloshed it can be extra messy. With the coir it is a benefit to slosh a bit extra around. I like the coir bricks rather than the bags for cost effectiveness. Hydroponics stores carry the extra large bricks, but the stuff for reptiles is best because it is finely ground. The other stuff can get a bit "hairy" when it dries.....

 

[Nroc]

I have buried the probe and am keeping it at 90 degrees at my tank bottom. I have a layer of ECO carpet beneath the aspen. This was to diffuse the UTH heat and prevent scalding hot glass spots that I get from teh UTH before I used a rheostat. I can keep that down for now right? I may pull it out after I do a deep cleaning now that I am using a rheostat. This will likely cause me to need to lower the UTH further...and I am already in the lower 1/5 of its adjustment range. Maybe I should just leave the carpet then...I dunno.

Air temps are in the low 70s even on the hot side, but I turned the light on to about half power this morning before I left. The tank bottom was 88 degrees at this time. I expect it to get up a little higher through the day because I think the light adds a few degrees even down that low. I expect the light to bring air temps to the low 80 degree mark.

Also, I have less than 2 inches of substrate, but it's more than an inch. I assume there is a max depth that I can have the substrate before taking a reading off the tank bottom becomes useless. A 90 degree tank bottom would seem to be useless with say 6 inches of aspen bedding. Are there any depth issues that I should be aware of?

So I don't need to monitor the substrate surface temp at all anymore? My whole goal was to provide ideal situations for the snake where he hangs out the most. I guess now, I am providing a source of heat deeper in the substrate, and if he needs it, he can go find it.

 

[Tracee]

I have buried the probe and am keeping it at 90 degrees at my tank bottom.

90 is still a wee bit high, mid 80s is the highest you want to aim for, in fact most people recommend 85. I know it doesn't feel very 'hot' to you, but that's because our body temperature is higher than this.

I have a layer of ECO carpet beneath the aspen. This was to diffuse the UTH heat and prevent scalding hot glass spots that I get from teh UTH before I used a rheostat. I can keep that down for now right? I may pull it out after I do a deep cleaning now that I am using a rheostat. This will likely cause me to need to lower the UTH further...and I am already in the lower 1/5 of its adjustment range. Maybe I should just leave the carpet then...I dunno.

If there's no chance the snake can get underneath it, I'm sure there's no harm leaving it, so it's your choice whether you'd like to keep it or not.

It doesn't matter one jot that the UTH is in the lower 1/5 of its range! Yes they can get very hot, above 100, and some reptiles need hotter temps - but your corn needs it to be around 85.

Air temps are in the low 70s even on the hot side, but I turned the light on to about half power this morning before I left. The tank bottom was 88 degrees at this time. I expect it to get up a little higher through the day because I think the light adds a few degrees even down that low. I expect the light to bring air temps to the low 80 degree mark.

The only reading you need to be concerned with is wherever it is hottest. Air temps don't count for much - corns use belly heat. There is no need for you to use a light and a UTH together. As you have said, the UTH isn't anywhere near full power, the light is of no benefit. They don't need any special lighting, just in case you didn't know already.

Also, I have less than 2 inches of substrate, but it's more than an inch. I assume there is a max depth that I can have the substrate before taking a reading off the tank bottom becomes useless.

I can't imagine why any reading would become useless if the snake can GET THERE and potentially burn itself. Someone will put me right if I'm wrong about this.

A 90 degree tank bottom would seem to be useless with say 6 inches of aspen bedding. Are there any depth issues that I should be aware of?

No issues with depth that I'm aware of, your snake won't suffocate in the aspen, if that's what you mean...

So I don't need to monitor the substrate surface temp at all anymore? My whole goal was to provide ideal situations for the snake where he hangs out the most.

As I have tried to elude to, the reading you need to be most concerned with is wherever is hottest. Perhaps with the light and UTH going, your snake was just smart enough not to burrow to an even hotter area! Clever snakey!

I guess now, I am providing a source of heat deeper in the substrate, and if he needs it, he can go find it.

Exactly

 

[Tracee]

Sorry, correction to the first thing I said:

90 is still a wee bit high, mid to high 80s is the highest you want to aim for.

 

[Feanturi]

Quote: "90 is still a wee bit high, mid 80s is the highest you want to aim for, in fact most people recommend 85. I know it doesn't feel very 'hot' to you, but that's because our body temperature is higher than this."

Quote: "Sorry, correction to the first thing I said:

90 is still a wee bit high, mid to high 80s is the highest you want to aim for."


85 is a good point really. It gives you a few free degrees of flexibility in case the UTH temp rises from an increase in ambient air temps.

I'd get rid of the ECO carpet. A piece of tile will diffuse the heat as well, be harder for the snake to crawl under and has less places for bacteria and fungus to develop. But, to each his/her own.

The _only_place you need worry about, no matter the depth of the bedding, is the temp at the glass.

Tracee and the others have given you good advice; it's time to take it. Overthinking these things does no real good.

 

[Tracee]

I'd get rid of the ECO carpet. A piece of tile will diffuse the heat as well, be harder for the snake to crawl under and has less places for bacteria and fungus to develop.

Great idea!

 

[bitsy]

Are there any (...substrate...) depth issues that I should be aware of?

Check the instructions that come with your UTH. The ones that I use, specify that they shouldn't have more than one inch of substrate over their position.

 

[Feanturi]

Great idea!

Cheers!

And it holds the heat well, under coconut coir, if the power goes out, or if I unplug the cage(s) for awhile. Tiles can be scored on the back with a utility knife and then broken neatly to fit. T-Rex makes _In-Tank Heaters_ that work great with the tile. Just keep water bowls on the far end to be safe. The coir also does great with water spill control. Even when fairly moist it will take-up more than a wee bit before the spill travels far.

You know, I feel a bit like a coir evangelist here.....

 

[Feanturi]

Check the instructions that come with your UTH. The ones that I use, specify that they shouldn't have more than one inch of substrate over their position.

Good thing to think about bitsy.

Reading the back of the T-Rex mat box mentions nothing about substrate depth. It does however mention that it is Made in Scotland ("all hand made to exacting European standards") and, therefore, not crap!

According to Zoo-Med's website (http://www.zoomed.com/Library/ProductDBFiles/rhundertankheater.pdf) the substrate limitation is for sand or gravel, to not exceed 1.5". It only mentions using carpet or other liner with Aspen or lightweight substrate material to diffuse the heat.

And I have had far too many Exo-terra mats fail on me so I didn't check them.

 

[Tracee]

I spent ages Googling after bitsy's post and never found a link with any info, good find! Sorry Nroc I did misunderstand what you meant about depth of substrate, but everything else I think I was pretty clear on.

 

[Nroc]

The only reading you need to be concerned with is wherever it is hottest. Air temps don't count for much - corns use belly heat. There is no need for you to use a light and a UTH together. As you have said, the UTH isn't anywhere near full power, the light is of no benefit. They don't need any special lighting, just in case you didn't know already.

I need the lighting more than the snake does I am sure. The blue bulb really makes him look good. Also, last night, after reducing his UTH below 90 degrees, he came off the fake leaves in the back of the tank, and laid directly under the light. I used to have his light on a stand that suspended it about 5 inches from the screen top. Last night, I decided to use the stand ONLY as a temporary holder for the light when I decide to open the cage top. That 5 inch span was spilling too much light all over the room, and it aslo caused me to turn the light up higher to get similar output. Lowering the light back to the screen lets me dial down the intensity.

Anyway, after doing all this, my snake came off the leaves he normally hangs out on, and laid on top of his hide directly under the brightest spot of the light. I know he doesn't NEED the light, but I feel the snake appreciates it at times. It will be there for him if he wants it 12 hours a day. If not, he has plenty of other places to go. Also, not using the light would likely cause my cool side to dip below 70 during the day. As it is now, I am getting up to 71 or so on the cool side with the light at half power and UTH set to 90. I'll have to let these settings mature for another day before I get more serious about adjustments to the light output.

85 is a good point really. It gives you a few free degrees of flexibility in case the UTH temp rises from an increase in ambient air temps.

I'd get rid of the ECO carpet. A piece of tile will diffuse the heat as well, be harder for the snake to crawl under and has less places for bacteria and fungus to develop. But, to each his/her own.

The _only_place you need worry about, no matter the depth of the bedding, is the temp at the glass.

85 seems so low, but I will adjust it down to 88 while the house is at 70 degrees (the highest temp it usually reaches indoors) or should I set it to 85 while the house is at 67 degrees? If I place a tile down there, will I have to turn up the rheostat? I figure getting the heat through the tile will require more power. In this case, do I check temps at the tile? Will I aim for mid 80s at the tile? I hope I don't need to monitor the glass below the tile.

I fear that removing the carpet without adding a tile will cause me to adjust the rheostat too low, and I may lose some precision. It is not a far distance to OFF at this point, and I still need to shave off a few degrees it seems. I guess when i remove the carpet, I can test the rheostat to see what the glass gets to on the lowest setting.

Check the instructions that come with your UTH. The ones that I use, specify that they shouldn't have more than one inch of substrate over their position.

It takes at least an inch to bury the probe and coiled 6+ft of probe cable, but I'll check to see what it says.


Thanks to all for the advice. I think by the end of this weekend, I'll have everything tweaked.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

I'd like to add that just because you, personally, have never seen your snake burrow doesn't mean he doesn't. My Boo is nearly always in the same spots when I look for him... in his humid hide or in his half coconut shell on top of his substrate. But, there are several Boo-sized burrow tunnels throughout his viv. They are very active at night, when no one is in the room; how can you know for sure he isn't burrowing?

I would also recommend against the reptile carpet... Way too easy for him to squeeze under it and get stuck, and if your temp ON the carpet are 90*, he'd likely be a snake-kebob by the time you found him. Tile is a great idea if you absolutely must have something to diffuse the heat, but really you should be using a thermostat or rheostat to control it. My Zoo-Med UTH, left untouched for just an hour or two, soaring into the 120* areas. Now that I have a rheostat, temps are nearly always between 80* and 89*, unless it's particularly cold or warm in the house.

 

[Nroc]

I'd like to add that just because you, personally, have never seen your snake burrow doesn't mean he doesn't. My Boo is nearly always in the same spots when I look for him... in his humid hide or in his half coconut shell on top of his substrate. But, there are several Boo-sized burrow tunnels throughout his viv. They are very active at night, when no one is in the room; how can you know for sure he isn't burrowing?

I would also recommend against the reptile carpet... Way too easy for him to squeeze under it and get stuck, and if your temp ON the carpet are 90*, he'd likely be a snake-kebob by the time you found him. Tile is a great idea if you absolutely must have something to diffuse the heat, but really you should be using a thermostat or rheostat to control it. My Zoo-Med UTH, left untouched for just an hour or two, soaring into the 120* areas. Now that I have a rheostat, temps are nearly always between 80* and 89*, unless it's particularly cold or warm in the house.

I had thought about the carpet as being a trap for him if he ever got under a corner of it. I decided to do full length instead of just over the UTH as a way of making it harder for him to get under an edge. That being said, this would also make it harder for him to get out if he does get stuck. I think the carpet may have to go...and I may wait until his next feeding to do it. I don't want to stress him out by removing the carpet and relocating him to his feeding container.

Do you use a rheostat like this one?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FK9X94...e=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B000FK9X94

It sounds as if you aren't using a tile or anything under there. Can you get the UTH cold enough without a tile using that rheostat (assuming you are using that one).

 

[Feanturi]

85 seems so low, but I will adjust it down to 88 while the house is at 70 degrees (the highest temp it usually reaches indoors) or should I set it to 85 while the house is at 67 degrees? If I place a tile down there, will I have to turn up the rheostat? I figure getting the heat through the tile will require more power. In this case, do I check temps at the tile? Will I aim for mid 80s at the tile? I hope I don't need to monitor the glass below the tile.

I fear that removing the carpet without adding a tile will cause me to adjust the rheostat too low, and I may lose some precision. It is not a far distance to OFF at this point, and I still need to shave off a few degrees it seems. I guess when i remove the carpet, I can test the rheostat to see what the glass gets to on the lowest setting.

I measure the top of the tile with a Temp Gun, and put a digital probe between the tile and pad. Be aware that there will be differences between probe and tile temps, I adjust the temp to tile surface heat desired (with a lamp dimmer, $10 Ace Hardware), so the digital probe may read higher than actual surface temp, but the tile is weighted down and the smaller snakes can't get under it, apparently. The bigger snakes don't seem to have suicidal tendencies and self-regulate in a more, well, adult, fashion. If you have the UTH outside the tank, try not taping it to the glass and putting down a heat resistant mat under the UTH (I use foil wrapped cardboard for this) and use different sized spacers to adjust. I have a temp housing in a glass tank for a new BRB in quarantine that I use empty cat food cans under the tank for optimal temps. Try chopsticks, then pencils, then thicker wood, etc until the glass temp dials in (I would forego the carpet or tile for this method).

As far as light goes, I know they be nocturnal, but my corns seem to like lying around in the sun. Especially the pink-eyed Coral Snow who seems to have a recessive George Hamilton gene!

 

[Aislin]

Especially the pink-eyed Coral Snow who seems to have a recessive George Hamilton gene!

Mine too! lol

Great advice here...I'm reading all this avidly as it helps settle some of my own confusion.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

I had thought about the carpet as being a trap for him if he ever got under a corner of it. I decided to do full length instead of just over the UTH as a way of making it harder for him to get under an edge. That being said, this would also make it harder for him to get out if he does get stuck. I think the carpet may have to go...and I may wait until his next feeding to do it. I don't want to stress him out by removing the carpet and relocating him to his feeding container.

Do you use a rheostat like this one?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FK9X94...e=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B000FK9X94

It sounds as if you aren't using a tile or anything under there. Can you get the UTH cold enough without a tile using that rheostat (assuming you are using that one).

Yup, that's exactly the one I use. And yes, I can get the temps optimal, but at different part sof the rheostat for each snake. For Boo, who is in a glass aquarium style tank, I need the rheostat set a bit lower to achieve perfect temps, and I always check on it before bed and when I wake up in the morning, as that's when the potential for them to drop is highest. I haven't probed he cool end of the tank, but by placing hides throughout (cool end, middle, warm end, and everywhere in-between), the assumption is he thermo-regulates as needed through his tank.

In Mouse's tank, which is a sterilite container with holes drilled in it, it's a little harder to get the warm spot warm, so the rheostat is turned up just a bit higher than on Boo's tank, but regardless of what you use, the wness is on you to play with the rheostat and the temp probe until you find what works for you.