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A stargazer's story...

I am really confused as to why you are sick that you sold lots of healthy perfectly normal snakes and just NOW have one showing what you THINK is SG. With THAT many snakes you would not should, you WOULD have seen way more if this was SG. I think that baby just has a neurological defect and should be put down. Especially since you said it has difficulty righting itself and moving. From the research I have done you REALLY would have seen more if you bred and sold 100 to 1000 + babies from this line.

I think you are just freaking out and need to breath a little here.
 
carnivorouszoo said:
I am really confused as to why you are sick that you sold lots of healthy perfectly normal snakes and just NOW have one showing what you THINK is SG. With THAT many snakes you would not should, you WOULD have seen way more if this was SG. I think that baby just has a neurological defect and should be put down. Especially since you said it has difficulty righting itself and moving. From the research I have done you REALLY would have seen more if you bred and sold 100 to 1000 + babies from this line.

I think you are just freaking out and need to breath a little here.
Click to expand...

I think you have confused Noe.gr and Specialcornsjohan here - Noe.gr has 1 suspect hatchling out of 12, with 3 clutches left to hatch.

Johan as 10 stargazers out of 3 clutches. These clutches are the first F2 babies from a single male sunkissed on his premises, so the first year it is possible to see that this male is het stargazer. He has been used to start several projects over the last couple of years, so he has several clutches of offspring around. We have F1 babies from him, and also an older male from the same line who is of course now suspect as he may be a brother/half brother.

I believe Noe.gr's foundation male is also of the same line as Johan's sunkissed male, so although 1 out of 12 is not massive odds, and on it's own is probably not enough to say he definately het stargazer, his index of suspicion for this male is higher because of the other related male.

If marc never bred to F2 with his original animals, he would never be aware of the stargazer. If he has bred to F2 he has either been lucky or unlucky, depending on how you look at it, with the odds not to produce stargazers.
 
Not sure how I got anyone confused since my post was based off the one just before mine. . . .but ok. If I did get confused I appologize. :shrugs:
 
vetdebbie said:
If marc never bred to F2 with his original animals, he would never be aware of the stargazer. If he has bred to F2 he has either been lucky or unlucky, depending on how you look at it, with the odds not to produce stargazers.
Click to expand...

It is my second year I'm breeding F2 from Sunkissed x Ice , Sunkissed x Lavender and Sunlissed x Caramel and never and Sunkisseds for some years .Some guys say/know that I sometimes breed animals in an early stadium, so I should know fast when something wrong comes out of it . I had never a stargazer and no one ever claimed/told me to have one. So I was not aware of having a het or poss het gazer as I was told some weeks ago . Also this year . I did several F2 breedings with sunkisseddcombo's as last year , no abnormal behaviour seen so far .
I should be crazy to keep breeding if I had known. I don't want to sit on a bomb and wait till I get the pieces in my own ... .
 
This is why I am trying to stay away from sunkissed and okeetee. Stargazers is too scary and as long as I am fairly confident to not have stock from crosses, I am ok. I just don't see the beauty of sunkissed anyway. Its lost on me.
 
I give a lot of credit to those suspecting SG in their lines that go the mile to track down the ancestry. Only by that can somone's stock be known clear. It's not hard to come across a sunkissed clear of SG. You'd just buy from bigger breeders that have worked with the morph a few generations and they can be sure which animals do not carry it.
Not impressed with SK morphs? There are some really cool looking snakes with some wild head patterns. For me, I think I'd like to have an Orchid someday. Very nice pinky/purply when SK combines with Lavender :)
 
Last month I acquired a 10 year old Jasper county sunkissed that was bred by Kathy Love. He is a beautiful animal, and really nice tempered. He was never bred until this year, to a Jasper county Love okeetee. All 10 babies hatched SG free as far as we can tell. This tells me that at least the male or the female are SG clear since both parents would have to be hets for the trait to show up. I still want to get my boy tested though.
 
Ok lemme say somethin.
I own a couple of het sunbloods from marc.
And no in the whole clutch out of 15eggs there
were no stargazers n even when there´s only a
chance of 25% there have to be at least on
gazer in the clutch.
I trust marc and he breed great animals !

otherways i´m a bit angry bout this discussion havin
stargazer in line or not.
I breed my couple this year n no one wanne buy
them only they read bout the risk of stargazers in
sunkissed lines.

Think best way is when anyone got breedable gazers he
should borrow em to those who have sunkissed in their
stock n give em the chance to be sure of havin it in line
or not.
 
lajes said:
Ok lemme say somethin.
I own a couple of het sunbloods from marc.
And no in the whole clutch out of 15eggs there
were no stargazers n even when there´s only a
chance of 25% there have to be at least on
gazer in the clutch.
I trust marc and he breed great animals !

otherways i´m a bit angry bout this discussion havin
stargazer in line or not.
I breed my couple this year n no one wanne buy
them only they read bout the risk of stargazers in
sunkissed lines.

Think best way is when anyone got breedable gazers he
should borrow em to those who have sunkissed in their
stock n give em the chance to be sure of havin it in line
or not.
Click to expand...

I think thats the best way to never sell untested Sunkissed lines anymore.
look what I mean is this:

You breed for example with a het SG male without knowing!!! to 2 ore 3 females. All the babys are 50% ph SG still without knowing.
When you breed 2.2 from each cluch back in F2
and just the male's are het SG, you still 'think that the line is clean!

I'm glad that people not buy untested SK anymore (if they do that)
If they not, than they don't understand sthe SG gene.

it's very simple test ore don't sell

Johan
 
Yeah i know what you mean but what should i do?
Not sellin my own hatchling only i hadnt the ability to test the parents??
If i would have the chance to get a snake who is hom or het for st i
will do prove the parents but as long as i dont get any snake like that n
all my hatchlings are healthy n didnt show any symtomes i will (try) to sell
em.
an as long as every clutch is healthy i will also pair the parents!
 
I think we should give credit to the poster. Yes it's not 100% sure it's stargazer but the changes are high and at least he does the responsible thing. Instead of waiting and seeing if it's really SG and just selling the other hatchlings because it's not sure if it's Stargazer.
I also believe Johan is right, Sunkissed lines should not be sold when untested. And that's probably why I'm a little bit upset with Marc.
Marc, you're just acting like your nose bleeds. I'm sorry but the animals came from your lines, so there is Stargazer in your lines. It's still possible for you to breed F2 animals and still have no SG animals in your clutches. But that does not mean they are SG free. You could easily pair a het. stargazer to a stargazer free animal. I know you have a lot of breeding pairs and it's unrealistic to think you could warn all your customers. However you could man up and say you made a mistake. I would test all my animals for SG if I were you. That would be the right thing to do.
 
I can't say , I made a mistake . I have never had a stargazer in my clutches and the first I heard about a het in my collection was some weeks ago by Johan .Testing is the best option to be shure lines are SG free , when you have a animal that's homo for stargazer . But what if not , are people willing to take over my snakes to test them all ?

Some more hachtlings are pipping now , I let you know the total result after they all hatched .
 
specialcorns johan said:
it's very simple test ore don't sell

Johan
Click to expand...

Cornparadise said:
I also believe Johan is right, Sunkissed lines should not be sold when untested.
Click to expand...

I find it interesting that so many people are up in arms about the sunkissed lines and the possibility of having a stargazer baby that they say nothing should be sold until tested.

On the other hand, people seem to think it is okay to sell babies that needed tricks to get started, or lizards, or were picky feeders, etc. and that doesn't matter and no "lizard started" or similar labels are used in the market. To tell you the truth, I'd rather hatch a clutch that had 1/4 of stargazers instead of 1/4 picky, non-feeders. Stargazer is something you can see right away and if that animal has it you can euthanize or attempt to keep it alive but if they are picky, non-feeders sometimes you are forced to watch the slow, hunger strike death. We all know that tricks are used in this industry to get hatchlings to feed....when is the last time you saw a deli container indicating such....and don't count my table.
 
Personally, Jeff, if non-feeding was known to be genetic, or known to run in a certain line, I would think it should be labelled. And if I ever hatch any babies, and some of those are really bad feeders, I think I would label as such. I think the people who sell nonfeeders as nonfeeders at a discount price are being very honest, because they are indicating the problem!
 
wstphal said:
Personally, Jeff, if non-feeding was known to be genetic, or known to run in a certain line, I would think it should be labeled. And if I ever hatch any babies, and some of those are really bad feeders, I think I would label as such. I think the people who sell non feeders as non feeders at a discount price are being very honest, because they are indicating the problem!
Click to expand...

I agree...but is is very rare that snakes are labeled with the "tricks" that were taken to get them started. I know from experience in my own collection that although maybe not genetic.....I've seen lines that like lizards and their offspring seem to have that same desire. I now label them as such or sell them as picky/non-feeders. I know some people tube feed to get hatchlings started...haven't seen a label on that. I know some will force feed, tease feed, slit pinks, lizard scent, use braining, wash with soap, etc....I don't see those labeled.

I know it has not been shown that these kinds of preferences are genetic but I would think that many people who have been in the industry long enough will agree that some lavender lines are more prone to kinks and some bloodred lines have picky feeders. Some of the first lava lines were also problem feeders...so much so that I had a breeder tell me to stop the line due to heaving inbreeding and failure to thrive. You see it a lot less of these problems now due to all the outcrossing than 10 years ago but it still is around.

All I'm saying is that stargazer IS a problem...but I am not convinced it is any more/less of a problem than some of the other issues. If I've tested for SG and found it, the labels will say such. If it is unknown, my labels will indicate that as well.
 
Jeff, I'm way too much of a n00bie to tell someone like you what to do! And I think saying "not tested for SG" is fair & honest. Then the buyer has to decide what to do. The thing I see as wrong is saying "NOT het gazer" when no testing has been done. The seller can't know for sure if his or her lines are het gazer unless he or she tests, so saying "not tested" or "SG het status unknown" is truthful.
 
MohrSnakes said:
I find it interesting that so many people are up in arms about the sunkissed lines and the possibility of having a stargazer baby that they say nothing should be sold until tested.

On the other hand, people seem to think it is okay to sell babies that needed tricks to get started, or lizards, or were picky feeders, etc. and that doesn't matter and no "lizard started" or similar labels are used in the market. To tell you the truth, I'd rather hatch a clutch that had 1/4 of stargazers instead of 1/4 picky, non-feeders. Stargazer is something you can see right away and if that animal has it you can euthanize or attempt to keep it alive but if they are picky, non-feeders sometimes you are forced to watch the slow, hunger strike death. We all know that tricks are used in this industry to get hatchlings to feed....when is the last time you saw a deli container indicating such....and don't count my table.
Click to expand...

Hi Jeff,
Don't get me wrong,
I a other post from me above I write also that I agreed that you label the corns, if you know the status off them.

My personal opinion for my collection is not sell without testing. Because other wise I can still spread the gene. And I realy think that it's on this moment more wors than we can imagine.
And when people sell for example labeld corns to others you never know what they do with them. If they breed and sell them un labeld.............than is the SG problem in a few years so big that we have in the most line's (also non sunkissed, Okeetee) the Sg gene. And it's that what we want? me not.

I understand what you mean by other corn problems like non feeders. I also never sell non feeders or bad feeders, that's my way, how I see the hobby.
I even think that you never can ask money for bad, or non feeders and het, poss het or homo SG.
I don't say that you do that, and don't get me wrong it's just my opinion

cheers Johan

I know what you mean about other problems
 
I´m totaly with Jeff.
Better playin with open cards then brakin a lancet over
everybody who breed n sell sunkissed lines without testin em.
Hey as i said before if anybody give me a hom or het sg animal
i will test my couple as soon as possible but up to now i can´t!

I think there are more worst things goin on in the cornsnake industry
then this gene n even on of the snakes sold by marc to me is het
for sg i wouldnt ever blame him for this.
Think thats price you habe to pay breedin snakes like cornsnakes.
You can even buy a labeled as quad het snake n only get a simple
hom one.
What would you be more angry about??
I also would be much happier about be sure bout what i´m buyin
n stuff but if there are still some black sheeps you could never
be sure!
 
Testing

Well since its recessive its going to be really hard to ever say any line is 100% clean.
It is possible to breed a Homo Stargazer x Het Stargazer produce 30 good eggs and hatch all snakes without being homo Stargazing.
So through breeding trials there really isnt no sure fire way to tell,unless it can be tested another way.
I do plan to cull if and when it does pop up,but unless theres some other type of testing,breeding trials wont give accurate results.
Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.:shrugs:
 
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