Another controvercial topic:The Crypto "secret"...

[Noe..gr]

I have been thinking about this topic for a very long time.
Everything started after some books and articles I read,about what I think is a hidden timebomb in our passion (corns).Its Cryptosporidium or else known as Crypto.
I think it is something like the things in life,we say "that would never happen to me".And when it happens we need to keep it secret..
Well it hasn't happened but what are the odds when no one seems to take it under great consideration.
I have read everywhere it is so contagious and that there is no cure.For me that means that even if I have only one snake in my collection that has it,all of the others can become carriers and die of it or not,if I'm not carefull with all the quarantine and hygiene rules I must take when having corns.
How many of us keep these rules?How about the breeders?Do they all keep them?And the wholesellers who buy snakes from anyone and keep them and handle them all together?The petshops?Those who sell snakes at shows and let anyone hold anything?I keep thinking how easy is for crypto to spread everywhere under those circumstances.
What should we do to protect our collections from it?
After all many corns die and we don't know what went wrong.Isn't there a rule in the hobby that says "something can go wrong".I wonder how many times the "wrong"/cause was crypto..


I must state that by no means I want to offend someone or spread the word of disaster in our hobby.Just want to share with you my thoughts.

 

[MegF.]

I don't think that people hide crypto. As a matter of fact, and number of people have come on here to discuss the fact that their collection had to be destroyed due to infection. I personally follow all quarantine protocols when a new animal comes into my collection. Depending upon where it comes from is how long I hold it in quarantine. 3 months if it's someone I know, 6 if I don't. They are kept in a seperate room fed last and all equipment is sterilized. I don't think that crypto really runs rampant. I'm sure it's out there, but it's not in every animal you come across.

 

[Roy Munson]

My opinion, which is based on zero real evidence, is that crypto is probably more widespread than we'd like to believe. I believe that it resides nearly dormant in many animals, and it only gets a foothold when these animals' health becomes compromised in some other way. Poor enclosure hygeine, improper temps, improper brumation conditions, maybe even proper brumation conditions in a snake that is somehow already compromised, etc. may open the door to a full-blown outbreak in a snake. How do you quarantine against something that may not show up for years, or may not show up at all?

Who tests every single animal they own? Are we sure that the tests are reliable in robust animals with low-levels of infection? If I buy a snake right now, intending to breed it to one of my long-term, healthy snakes next season, are eight months of quarantine sufficient when the parasite can go undetected for years or forever? When people do breeding loans, do they follow strict quarantine protocol procedures each time?

I'm not saying that quarantine is a b.s. concept, but I think that there are a lot of keepers and breeders who don't do it or don't do it right, but they're not about to admit it publicly. I'm not judging them; it would be hypocritical for me to do so. To be able to judge, I'd have to spend many, many thousands of dollars and extensively test all of my snakes periodically. Who does this? What would become of our hobby if it was no longer an affordable endeavor? Are you willing to pay a few hundred dollars extra to have a negative-tested hatchling shipped to you? Are you going to pay $400 shipped for that Okeetee hatchling you've been eyeing? Are the results reliable enough to trust if you test the snake when the parasite isn't shedding oocytes (I think that's what they're called)?

Crypto scares the heck out of me, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that it's something we're controlling. :shrugs:

 

[tbtusk]

Wow, I honestly hadn't even heard of this. But that's why we have the forums, to spread knowledge. Thanks for starting this thread, if only to put the concept out in the forums one more time. Now i've got to go do some research.

 

[MegF.]

I agree with you there Dean. There's a whole bunch of diseases among animals and humans that reside among us without ever manifesting itself. I hardly call that a problem though. It only becomes a problem when certain factors lead to infection. Do I test each of my animals? No. Would I? No. I don't think the risk of getting the disease is high enough to warrant it. I don't quarantine for crypto anyway. I quarantine more for RI's and parasites than for that. It hardly crosses my mind as something that my snakes will come into. The pythons are quarantined a little longer to make sure there's no IBD although it's rare among green tree pythons. I still want to make sure. The corns I buy are usually from people I know. I know the animals they came from were healthy, and the conditions they are kept in. I really don't think I'm going to run screaming from the room because of crypto. It's like saying I'm going to get salmonella from my snake. It's possible, but unlikely.

 

[diamondlil]

When I lost my MBK Pancho in April, his repeated regurges and general failure to thrive put crypto immediately into my head. I did already clean out the feeding tubs and hand wash between handling diferent snakes, and had luckily always used his own personal feeding tub because I was worried his 'kingsnake' scent would affect the corns. Then when I found he had mites I was even more careful in preventing any cross-contamination for the other snakes.
I still wonder if he did have crypto or not, and whether I'm harbouring it in my collection, but I just can't afford the costs quoted by my nearest herp vet to test them all. The vet insists on charging a consultation fee for each animal as well as for each fecal. While they are symptom-free I'll carry on with good hygiene and hope for the best.
I don't know if this means my head is in the sand, but it's the best fit solution for now. Unless there are any signs of trouble I'll hold off on the testing. If symptoms develop I'd have to decide whether to run the tests or just euthanise everything and start again

 

[Roy Munson]

I don't know if this means my head is in the sand, but it's the best fit solution for now.

I agree with your post, Janine. When I used the expression "stick my head in the sand", I meant that to apply to people I've seen who get preachy about preventive measures when they are really not controlling the situation in any real or effective way. I've seen Europeans on here get borderline accusatory as if the crypto in Europe is the result of bad or negligent practices among American breeders and exporters. This is B.S., in my opinion. I'll bet by the time there were 20 corn snakes in Europe, crypto was already present. Heck, it could have been there BEFORE the first corn was imported. I've also heard of them having their snakes tested, but the cost of the tests is 1/10 the cost of crypto testing here. It makes me wonder if these inexpensive tests are as thorough as the highly expensive tests that are done here. I know I can't afford to have sixty or seventy snakes tested at $300 per snake. Fortunately, I have no reason to suspect that any of my snakes carry the parasite.

 

[kathylove]

I suspect it is probably lurking around a lot more frequently than we would guess. But from what I have read, even testing your whole colony (expensive!) doesn't guarantee anything because they can test with false negatives several times.

So until better tests are available, the best we can do is quarantine new arrivals and any suspicious animals. And test any that have symptoms, but isolate as if they are for sure positive. I guess if you were really paranoid, you could euthanize any snake that ever regurged at all, but that seems a little overboard. I am not sure what else you could do at this point.

Of course, buying from a dealer who gets animals from many sources and dumps them all in a couple of cages together would certainly increase chances for exposure to all kinds of disease. Most breeders and specialty reptile shops are not likely to do that (compared to a general pet store that carries some reptiles as well as other animals.)

 

[Noe..gr]

Well,most of my thoughts are really close to Dean's.My problem is that I don't really know who to trust.Do others care about Crypto?Not many I think.And that has nothing to do with where they come from,U.S or E.U.
Most of my snakes are and will be imported.I try to have them from people who give me the idea that know and care about "little details" as that.But I can never be sure,right?
I too try to keep high standards in quarantine and hygiene issues.My collection is small at the moment and I'm planning to have some lab tests on.But as Dean said the cost is 1/10 of the cost you have to pay for every single snake,even in my small country.
I don't feel though that the result will be 100% accurate nor 100% false.It's for me another measure I have to take to make me feel better in a way.I feel responsible for the snakes I own and would like to feel that I do always my best for them and me.

 

[dionythicus]

I don't think that crypto is a secret. Its a well documented disease among snakes, especially colubrids. The testing for it is much less than testing for other diseases, like IBD, where the only accurate test is a liver biopsy. My vet only charged $350 because he's exotics and reptiles only. Other vets were quoting $700. As far as I know, the best test method would be a gastric lavage to test the stomach fluids for crypto as opposed to a fecal sample. There was someone on here last year, I believe, that had a snake test + for crypto and he chose to euthanise his entire collection. We each have to follow the best quarantine methods we can and make educated decisions about culling, selling, buying snakes as we go.

Now that I've been through a horrible scare with the possibility of IBD in my collection, which cost me $350 for the biopsy to prove my animals are clean, I have to wonder with each animal I buy, "Is this the one that's going to wipe out my entire collection?" I've now sell rules for myself. I will no longer buy any snake from a pet store or adopt through a rescue. I will only buy snakes from breeders at shows who have receipts, guarantees and are willing to answer pointed questions, or from breeders online who are in good standing with the BOI and/or that I have seen on the forums and trust their knowledge and stock. Its still a risk I take, but at least I already have almost every known gene in my collection and there aren't many more genes to obtain. LOL

 

[Noe..gr]

When I said that Crypto is a secret I meant that is something that people who have to deal with it want to keep as a secret for obvious reasons...
And again I have to say that I think there are many out there,but I cannot point to any direction without proof.That's not my intention also!

I also feel that every test method is good for me,compared to no test at all.But that's just the way I feel.

 

[TandJ]

dionythicus mentioned the following..

I will only buy snakes from breeders at shows who have receipts, guarantees and are willing to answer pointed questions, or from breeders online who are in good standing with the BOI and/or that I have seen on the forums and trust their knowledge and stock.

I had to reread your post..For a second * because I must have skimmed way over the post * that you were unlikely to buy from people unless they had a BOI rating or handed out reciepts.. Was thinking you might be missing out on a bunch of qaulity animals that way..

Like yourself, we have the majority of the known genetics in our group, would hate to loose our group to an illness or sickness.. I would be devestated, as our collection is rather large * what I consider large * and missing a few morphs or het morphs here and there.. I know if I brought every animal we own in to the Vet to get checked for crypto, I would not be able to afford to pay it off at all..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[dionythicus]

I meant that at shows I will only purchase from vendors who are a legitimate business: they have receipts, health guarantees, a method to contact them with any questions/concerns, etc. I won't buy from anyone at a show who is a "fly by night" breeder. I made that mistake two years ago. I look for professionalism. That's a key to quality in my book. Maybe I pass over good animals, but I also prevent buying unhealthy animals, too.

 

[tbtusk]

I did my reading on crypto, and this thread has been very interesting as well.\

I meant that at shows I will only purchase from vendors who are a legitimate business: they have receipts, health guarantees, a method to contact them with any questions/concerns, etc. I won't buy from anyone at a show who is a "fly by night" breeder. I made that mistake two years ago. I look for professionalism. That's a key to quality in my book. Maybe I pass over good animals, but I also prevent buying unhealthy animals, too.

It seems that there is no practical way at the moment to test a collection for crypto, and it seems their is no way to completely avoid the parasite, although we don't really know, even when only perchasing from trusted, or trustable preaders, as you are suggesting. I still think that that is one of the best ways, along with quarentining, to prevent deseases and pests from entering ones collection. That is part of the reason why i am trying to set up my 'company', or small snakery, (although I'ts not much at the moment) as a professional, trustable snakery, no matter how small it may be.

Health guarentees are a great creation. The mere fact that a person offers one is encouraging, as it suggests that the person believes, whether it is true or not, that their animals are healthy. Contact info is also very inportant to me when buying a snake. It says to me that the person cares for their animals and is willing to except the blame, even if it should not rest on them, for a prioblem, be it defect or desease, it their animals.

Little of that is new information, but I think it is very important to avoid devistation by desease in a collection. It's also important to keeping the hobby going strong. I'm glad so many of us trusts each other in the hobby, and these little guarentees and bits of information are very helpful to all.

 

[Roy Munson]

Health guarentees are a great creation. The mere fact that a person offers one is encouraging, as it suggests that the person believes, whether it is true or not, that their animals are healthy.

How useful is a guarantee from a person who believes, but doesn't know, if their animals are healthy? How useful is a health guarantee where crypto is concerned? No guarantee is going to cover an animal that develops a full-blown crypto infection in its fourth year. A seller would be crazy to do this anyway. I don't know how much a necroscopy costs, but is that included in the guarantee? What health issues are or are not covered by the guarantee? I'd like to see some of these guarantees before I decide how valuable they are.

I've had one hatchling that I purchased die in my care, and I was amazed that the seller wanted to replace it. I had kept it for 6+ months when it died. The seller knows me somewhat, so I guess he was reasonably certain that my husbandry didn't kill the snake. I still thought that it was an incredibly generous gesture on his part. I wouldn't expect anyone to guarantee a snake for 6 months.

 

[tbtusk]

Honestly, Idon't think it is that helpful, actually. What I'm saying is that it's better than a seller selling the snake to you and letting you deal with what goes worng. I feel like, when NOT dealing with crypto (I know, this is a crypto thread) it adds a little fealing of security, even if limited real security is given. I'm assuming the guarentee says esentially, that is husbandry conditions are within tolerable levels the snake will be replaced if it dies, or possibly if a kink or other deformatiy (star-gazing included) is found, in the first, say 2 months. That's just an idea. And I do agree that 6 months seems a little extreme. deseases or other problems in the animal that turn up that late can't possibly be detected reliably and cheeply before the snake is bought, so the seller has no responsability, IMO.

I guess it's the feeling of security you get, somewhat, from an agreement including a health guarentee, and the proof that the seller has found nothing wrong with the animal prior to selling it.

For crypto the only solution is to get the animal tested, and it seems even that is not completely reliable. Crypto, because it can lay dormant for so long, is hard to prevent, but that line of thought has been exlored. Another good idea may be to ask the seller directly if animals in his or her collection have been affected by any illness resently, and whether any show the symptoms of crypto, which I take it can also be moderately difficult to identify with 100% accuracy. That still does not prove anything, because of crypto's possible dormancy, as mentioned.

All of this is better than nothing. The very best thing besides multiple tests, is to watch animals carefully and make sure they are being properly cared for and are in top shape year round. Brumation can be a trigger of sorts, when the snake is in a weakened state of sorts, but that is hard to avoid, and is probably not one of the main causes of an outbreak. Any animal in a weakened state could, and should, be removed from the main collection and isolated in a seperate tank or tub. That would help guard from any crypto infection from spreading to the rest of the collection if that one animal is infected with the parasite. Many of us already do much of that, so not much can be improved. I think we are doing well enough at the moment, and few enough perople have reported confirmed crypto cases that there's not much to change.

 

[MegF.]

I'm not even sure if isolation would be enough to protect the rest of your collection. Even handling the animal is enough of a risk to end up giving it to your other snakes as it's not a disease that is easily killed by washing, or even bleach. From what I've read, heat sterilization is the only method to kill the crypto spores. I still don't think that crypto is as bad as thought. It may be out there everyday, living in every snake, just as there are bacteria we carry around every day, all our lives, and you don't get sick from them. If the incidences of crypto were that high, we wouldn't have a snake left alive by now. Considering the closeness of collections...most of us have them in the same room, or even the same rack, a disease like this would have spread throughout, most likely before we were even aware that one was infected. Yet, I've only heard of one or two people on here who dealt with it at all. Yes, perhaps some don't want to say anything, but still you would have heard more about it. Perhaps on the level of RI's.
Visiting the topic of health guarantees:I offer a very short health guarantee on my animals. However, if someone contacted me after they got an animal and they had an issue I would most probably compensate in some way....even if it was past the guarantee. It depends upon the circumstances.

 

[diamondlil]

That's a good point, Meg. It's the way my thinking was going, that most if not all snakes have low levels of organisms like crypto and salmonella colonising their gut without ever causing problems, but if their immune state becomes weakened they may be able to multiply and then cause health problems.
An analogy is the MRSA (methecillin resistant staphylococcus aureous) that we deal with at work. There are an estimated 33% of the human population carrying the organism, and it can colonise wounds and cause no problems at all. It can co-exist, cause no ill-effects such as delaying healing or general infection and unless the wound is swabbed and the resulting culture tested, no-one would be any the wiser. For a very small percentage the mrsa organism takes advantage of conditions and causes septacemia or problems if it reaches the mitral valve in the heart. The shock value of news reports about the 'killer bug' are out of all proportion to the actual threat it represents

 

[MegF.]

You're right about that Janine, although estimates on MRSA here show it in probability to be much higher. As health care workers, we're probably already carrying it around without any effects at all. We check all patients coming into the ER and ICU/CCU regardless of age,and are finding that most are carrying around community aquired MRSA.

 

[diamondlil]

When I worked in ICU (moonlighted there as HCA whilst doing my training) We were routinely asked to do nasal swabs then eradication, as we were 100% positive. Now the emphasis is on univeral precautions. Don't get me started on the first over-reactions to HIV and HEP patients. Now the prevailing ethos is that all body fluids are treated as contaminated, and the patients are all treated as equally risky and at risk from us! (actually we take far more care over the patient's immune status than our own, recognising just how 'buggy' we are compared to the man in the street)