Anyone know Emory or Black Rats REALLY well?

[Green Oasis Reptiles]

Okay, so the female (upper pic) I got from a guy in trade at a show. I *believe* he said she was an Emory (he also said she was a HE, but that proved to be wrong when I probed later on at home), but I have searched & searched and I now don't believe that. *I* think she is likely a black ratsnake, but she is very small (only maybe 3 1/2-4 ft...and she IS full-grown) and SUPER tame/calm. (I know she LOOKS evil, and in fact, I named her Medusa because of it, but she's really very sweet.)
The little guy in the lower pic is one that was brought to/given my husband at work (he's getting to be known as "the snake guy" there! lol), and again, I thought he might be an Emory because we live in the Tulsa area of Oklahoma (northeast) & his head markings look very similar to an Emory...but again...poring over pics on the net, I now think HE may be a black ratsnake also...especially considering that he has been darkening after each shed, and appears VERY dark now (the light of the flash seems to have made his head markings show up again, as you normally can't even see it or the saddle color anymore.)
So, anyone who knows Emory's or Black Rats VERY well...I would welcome a comment. Or even an opinion at this point!

Thanks!

 

[dionythicus]

Having owned a pure Emoryi, I would hazard to say that neither are Emoryi. The top one definitely is not Emoryi. The head actually looks more bullsnake from that angle, I'd like to see a body shot.

 

[Snakewhisperer]

The coloration of the top one reminds me of an integrade Pantherophis obsoletas I saw at a reptile talk event, and the bottom really does seem like a young rat.

 

[Iguanagirl8662]

The first one looks more like a Prairie Kingsnake to me. I'm not sure about the other one but I would vote emory over black rat, because she doesn't look like my black rat.

 

[Snakewhisperer]

I don't think its a king, its a different scale type, and there is a change in width between the skull and neck. The coloration is like the transitional between the black phase and the yellow phase, giving a greenish-brown coloration. The bottom one looks like a younger black rat who hasn't darkened yet, with the slightly keeled scales, and patchy pattern.

 

[vetusvates]

The first one looks more like a Prairie Kingsnake to me. I'm not sure about the other one but I would vote emory over black rat, because she doesn't look like my black rat.

I'm with Iguanagirl. Not positive on the first. Sure on the second.

I've caught two L. c. calligaster's in my life, and a bazillion Black Rats. Not a Black Rat.
I have seen some locality Texas and Grey Rat's that were not immediately obvious as to their identities, though.
A macro inspection of the morphological characteristics of the head scales (of both), compared to a field guide or whatever, would tell beyond a shadow of doubt.

 

[Green Oasis Reptiles]

Okay, here's another pic with more of her body and her head in profile. She's definitely not a bull snake...nowhere near big enough for that.

 

[Green Oasis Reptiles]

And here is another to show her full size (hopefully). Sorry about the bad lighting...we were trying different techniques, etc.

 

[vetusvates]

The first one looks more like a Prairie Kingsnake to me. I'm not sure about the other one but I would vote emory over black rat, because she doesn't look like my black rat.

I'm with Iguanagirl. Not positive on the first. Sure on the second.

I've caught two L. c. calligaster's in my life, and a bazillion Black Rats. Not a Black Rat.
I have seen some locality Texas and Grey Rat's that were not immediately obvious as to their identities, though.
A macro inspection of the morphological characteristics of the head scales (of both), compared to a field guide or whatever, would tell beyond a shadow of doubt.

 

[Green Oasis Reptiles]

Okay, last pic of Medusa, hopefully! Just wanted to get another shot of her head in here!

 

[Iguanagirl8662]

I would say she is a Prairie king, I have an albino one he is evil lol. As for the other one I still am not sure.

 

[Green Oasis Reptiles]

I'm just not sure...she really doesn't seem to have a kingsnake-shaped head to me. Her head is long, like a corn or rat, but also a bit more wedge-shaped than a usual corn. I'll look up some prairie king pics, tho...thanks for the tip! (Honestly, I never even thought for a second that she would be a king! Don't have much experience with them.) Another note...she does have oddly-shaped scales on her head...they are not smooth like a corn, but each scale sort of "humps up" in the center & then crevices (is that a word?) in between. Don't know if you can tell from the pics.

 

[vetusvates]

I would say she is a Prairie king, I have an albino one he is evil lol. As for the other one I still am not sure.

LOL. The large one I caught long ago was evil, too. And strong. Escaped and my mom was not impressed. I didn't tell her I found it in her closet among her shoe boxes. The younger smaller one was...hmmm...not too evil.

 

[Green Oasis Reptiles]

Okay, you guys may be on to something there. (Was just looking up some stuff about Prairie Kings.)
Sorry, my experience with kings starts & stops with Cali Kings and I mistakenly assumed that since her head was much longer & thinner than our Cali Kings that she must be a rat of some sort.
Whatever she is, she is a cool snake and I just lover her. Now...what do I breed her with??? :O

 

[Iguanagirl8662]

I'm just not sure...she really doesn't seem to have a kingsnake-shaped head to me. Her head is long, like a corn or rat, but also a bit more wedge-shaped than a usual corn. I'll look up some prairie king pics, tho...thanks for the tip! (Honestly, I never even thought for a second that she would be a king! Don't have much experience with them.) Another note...she does have oddly-shaped scales on her head...they are not smooth like a corn, but each scale sort of "humps up" in the center & then crevices (is that a word?) in between. Don't know if you can tell from the pics.

I just picked mine up (he tried to eat me lol) to check out his scales, I didn't notice anything like you are describing (which I think is keeled scales). Their heads aren't like other kings in my opinion, they are a bit more corn snake like in a way.

I think the second one is either an emoryi or a texas rat. Do you know if it was wc?

LOL. The large one I caught long ago was evil, too. And strong. Escaped and my mom was not impressed. I didn't tell her I found it in her closet among her shoe boxes. The younger smaller one was...hmmm...not too evil.

Lol my mother would kill me if one of mine was in her closet especially my Prairie king he likes to try and eat toes lol.

 

[Green Oasis Reptiles]

The second guy was WC in the building my hubby works at in Tulsa, OK. I'm pretty sure he is a black rat because he looks like almost all the other pics on the web I've seen of hatchling black rats, and he IS getting darker with each shed. (Oh, and I should mention, he's a little BEAST of a hatchling! Snaps at everything that moves!)

With Medusa, no, I'm not talking about keels...it's hard to describe, but it's like each scale on her head is "bubbled up" in the middle. I'll have to see if I can get a better pic of it here soon, so you guys can see.
But, I am beginning to think that she may, in fact, be a Prairie King. Just when you think you're fairly intelligent, along comes a puzzle to knock you down a few notches! (Okay, so I, in part, blame the guy I got her from for not being upfront about her in the first place...but, I should've known better than to trust random strangers!)

 

[Snakewhisperer]

I also think she may be a prairie king, but if we knew where her genetic local was, it would greatly help. Here in NC, our L. calligaster look completely different, and some of our rat snakes look just like her, but I assume out west its just the opposite.

 

[El Jefe]

I used to live in Stillwater for 3 years and could probably ID what you had....if it was WC ....and if you had decent pictures. From what you've posted....I'd say prairie king on the first big one and black rat on the small one...but your pictures really are not coming through all that well on my computer.

 

[tyflier]

The first one looks like a Prairie King to me. All 3 of my calligaster look just like that...

Here's a couple older pictures...my daughter holding the male, and two different females...