Anyone takes their snake outside ?

[diabolical-good]

I'm no advocate of bringing any animals to the supermarket - unless it's human animals. I also think that our first thought as being responsible of our snakes and other reptiles should always be the concern for our animal's safety and health FIRST. - and not to endanger then from being suseptible to outside threats - be it a person, animal, whatever.

Having said that, however, I don't believe that the animal should be banned publicly. It's true that if people were more responsible with their animals - certain legislations wouldn't pass but - think about how many dogs have bitten people, knocked over and torn apart trash cans, dug up yards, gone without leashes and used someone's front lawn as a universal potty.

come on, now - no one is going to be banning dogs any time soon.

harmless snakes are just that - harmless. if I have a phobia of dogs and my neighbors's dog is outside, I'm pretty sure I'd have to stay inside or not walk out front, even if it were just to save myself from looking like a royal jackass because the neighborhoos retriever or poodle frightened me. Snakes are exempt from this courtesy only because of the ignorance of others, and preconcieved notions.

So I stick by speaking against laws that inhibit your rights wrongfully. Not only are such laws illogical, but they could at least be modified so that it doesn't ban all species. If you have a problem in your area about this you are perfectly entitled to write letters, call phone calls, get petitions signed to change the law. too many people don't know anything about this part of (the united states) system - thats largley how laws are made and passed, because the representative of the town, or whatever gets the idea of what his/her potential voters want.

And I's say at least be responsible to avoid stupid laws like that, by not being a jerk about the fact that you own herps. That just causes problems for the rest of us.

 

[Darin Chappell]

"I Won the Battle, but Lost the War"

authored by:

The proudest of the losing side's soldiers


Ahem...

Given that we are in a cultural climate wherein anything that might be harmful to "the children" is completely taboo; and that we as herpers are in a decidely tiny minority among pet owners; and that there is absolutely no way to stop our several communities and States, let alone the National Government, from banning our beloved corns as pets, if the majority EVER determined to do so; I ask the following:

"What good will your "rights" do you once they have been taken away from you by an uncaring majority that you helped to callous against your plight by a showing of complete disregard for the time honored tradition of discretion being the better part of valor?"

I have no controlling authority over anyone but myself, and precious little of that, but please, PLEASE hear me on this. The anti-herp portion of our society is a very, lightly, sleeping giant that is already showing signs of partial consciouness thanks to the likes of Melissa Kaplan and others. Let's not disturb that unstoppable foe just so we can say we had the guts to pull his beard!

You think your "rights" (We have no right to keep snakes, by the way ... we are currently at liberty to do so, but there have been no rights on this subject granted to us) have been hindered so far? Well, when it becomes a criminal act to keep snakes in your home (you know, because of all the negative attention we draw to ourselves needlessly), and the police can enter into your home and take all of your illegal "contraband," THEN you can know what "rights" you have lost.

I understand your frustrations, and I share them; honestly I do. But we have to recognize the situation in which we currently find ourselves as a community of herpers and really THINK before we act.

 

[Chip]

Preach on, Brother Chappell!

Please, just remember that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, folks.

 

[snakegrrl]

no vinegar here...

I agree that herpers have to be cautious with our snakes, and I am aware that many many people are either phobic or just plain don't like snakes. I know that being careless can lead to the kind of unfair laws some people are trying to get passed about illegalizing snakes. However, I am not saying people should go around flaunting their snakes, or be careless when they take them places. I think that when it comes to crouded places, and public places indoors, snakes should not come along. But on a walk through the park, say, we should be able to take our pets along, just as any other pet owner is able to do. There is a place where you have to draw the line between being cautious and respectful, and being downright fearful, and allowing yourself to be pushed in a dark corner because of your wonderful snake. I guess my line is a little more lenient than some others, but I know I am not harming anybody by taking my harmless corn to the park with me, and that is that. Period.

Rose

 

[galaxip]

So I stick by speaking against laws that inhibit your rights wrongfully.

[/SIZE] Bingo!! That was more well said than I could put it. And closer to the point than I was..
I say don't fear the system. Be wary of it, but don't fear it.
Instead, be prepared to USE the system (not abuse it, USE it).

Anyway, I understand the fears of the folks here... And I've no intention of making our situation worse by being irresponsible.

Being from brash hillbilly stock, I sometimes get this wild hare up my... The older I get the more I try to say it how I see it. If that offends, please recognize it is not intended to offend. If it still offends, go jump in a lake.

I respect EVERY viewpoint expressed here, whether I appear to agree with it or not. And I am NOT an authority on this subject... I just have an opinion, which I am entitled to.

 

[Celestine8]

*is going to get so many people angry* Well, sure I'm Canadian, but we have the same issues. However, when there is a new law trying to be passed or something and we don't like it, we make commercials, have meetings, etc. I'm sure it's the same in the states. However, the reason why most people don't speak out when they also agree with the commercials is that they do not realize that the majority is usually WITH them and not on the side of their leaders, sadly. Here's where I get in trouble... *clears throat* most Americans AND Canadians are pro-choice, don't care whether a man gets married to a man or a woman, have done pot and think that it's not the devil and should be illegal, etc... but our leaders.... SPEAK OUT! Your leaders are but a handful of people, we are the masses! Most people will give you a chance to say that your snake is harmless and that you understand how to keep control of your animal. In fact, most will probably not care if you want to take your little critter out. I'd understand if it was a 20 foot boa, but corn snakes and other small harmless snakes.... And reptile owners still number in the millions, I don't know about you, but that's a big number to me.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I'm going to step on some toes here, and probably burst some bubbles, but it's time for a reality check.
For those of you who take your snakes on strolls through the park I must ask...Why? Don't merely say "because Slinky likes it", that doesn't cut it. Neither does the argument that you wouldn't like to be in the same cage all day so surely your snake doesn't either. Both are baseless projections of imagined personality traits.

Consider for a moment the behavior patterns of snakes. In the wild, to move is to expose yourself to potential deadly consequences. A snake is perfectly content to spend days at a time comfortably hidden under a rock or in a hollow log.
In fact there are only three reasons the snake would move at all, to find a meal, to find a mate, or to regulate his temperature. Simply put, if moving is not required, it isn't done. As soon as he leaves the security of his hiding place, he is exposed to all manner of predators, and he is incapable of comprehending that predators do not exist in his captive situation.

The snake in the cage is still the same snake. They are not a legless hamster, or a scaly dog. They do not like to watch TV, be carried around like a piece of jewelry, or take long leisurely walks in the park. They are a snake and must be kept for what they are, not what you want them to be.
Snakes are unlike any other creature, and one of the responsibilities in owning one is to attempt to understand it, not impose on it a lot of fanciful misconceptions based on other animals, or worse yet, on human emotion.

To feel the need to bring your snake along on walks is not for the benefit of the snake, but of the owner. Wonder why the snake makes for the first hole in the yard he can find? Because he definately does not want to be laying out in the middle of the lawn waiting for a hawk to pass by.

Aside from the fact that the snake would much prefer to be left alone, as is natural for it, taking a reptile out in public is indeed irresponsible to the reptile community as a whole.
In an ideal world, it would be just as acceptable for someone to take a snake or lizard to the park as it is for a dog owner, but when has this world ever been ideal. The hard facts are many people do not like snakes. It may not be fair that you are discriminated against for your choice of pets, but that's the way it is, get used to it. We will never enjoy the same mainstream acceptance that dog owners do, and any attempt to use dogs in any fashion to support a snake related issue is futile. It's the same argument that is attempted with salmonella by those that say "chicken is responsible for millions more infections than reptiles, but you don't see them banning chicken". For those who want to ban snakes, it's just as irrelevant that dogs are more dangerous as it is chicken is more likely to infect someone with salmonella.

As was said earlier, we have no right to keep snakes. Our founding fathers did not say we all have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of herpetoculture. Taking your snakes into a public place outside of the proper setting is inviting legislation, and if your lucky it will only be a ban on bringing them out into public. You may indeed educate a few people and lessen their fear of snakes, but what about the few that never approach you but instead head home in fear to call their local elected officials.
Educating people is great. Have a fair, get with the local herp club to put on an annual educational event. We do that here. Set up a presentation with a local elementary class or scout troop, but just wandering through the park with a snake hanging off you is not the place to do it. We know corns are absolutely harmless, but I have personally met people that actually didn't know there were any snakes that were non venomous.

If your snake isn't going to the vet or an actual herp related event, there's just no reason why it should ever leave your property. It doesn't enjoy the trip, doesn't crave the change of scenery, and it won't miss you while you're gone.

 

[daytona]

If your snake isn't going to the vet or an actual herp related event, there's just no reason why it should ever leave your property. It doesn't enjoy the trip, doesn't crave the change of scenery, and it won't miss you while you're gone.

Hello to all. My first post here.

All I can say is that Clay is right on. Almost everyone hates snakes. Always remember this..... snakes make most people cringe! It's almost certainly a biblical thing. Even my wife who manages to put up with my eccentricities hates the 18" juvenile corn snake I rescued from the hawks hunting over my back yard.

Isn't it the shock factor that some people enjoy? If that's it, it's a disservice to all of us. Do a favor, If the occasion is anything less than Bike Week here in Daytona Beach, try walking around without the snake necklace.

****** ok,, I'm editing here*******

First off, what I wrote was my opinion only.

I ment no disrespect to those who to take their pets outside.

Finally, If your snake is part of your outfit and you feel the need to display it, have fun.

******************************************


Eric

 

[Legato-Miko]

Felt the urge to speak up about a little detail...

The hard facts are many people do not like snakes. It may not be fair that you are discriminated against for your choice of pets, but that's the way it is, get used to it.
Hullo, fairly new here (well, actually, I've just been lurking and not saying much for quite a while)....Anyway, just had to say something to this.
"That's the way it is, get used to it"? Excuse me for a moment, but I thought that was what's beautiful about America: If you don't agree with something, you darn well don't have to just settle for it, you can go about trying to change it! If something is entirely unfair, then I don't have to sit and huddle. Forgive me, but I have never understood the "get used to it" logic at all. Of course, that may just be me being a typical teenager.

 

[Darin Chappell]

"Of course, that may just be me being a typical teenager."


It is, but don't worry, we were all there at one time or another. It's just that some of us remember it a little more hazily than others!

I also have to agree with the sentiments that Clay set forth concerning cornsnake behavior.

If a snake had all of its comforts met in a 10" x 12" x 6" rock crevice (food, water, heat regulation, humidity level regulation, and a mate), such a snake would NEVER leave that crevice. They are creatures of satisfaction. They move to seek it, and once obtained, they are then satisfied to remain under cover.

Taking them outside may make you happy (and that's reason enough for you to do so, in my opinion), but it doesn't do any good for the snake and may, in fact, stress it out some.

Want to take your snake outside? Cool!!!! Just please be responsible so as not to bring the vast majority who misunderstand our wonderful charges down upon us all.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Chip]

Hate the herp laws, huh folks?

Let me ask you something. Why were these laws inacted in the first place? And don't tell me Jesse Helms just doesn't like snakes. Someone exercised their "rights" and screwed it up for all of us. Their animal got loose (most likely) or they were the Jack-hole who went on the elevator with a boa. I've done some research on the legal issues, and I must admit it was a "schnoodle" (schnauser/poodle mix), not poodle that was eaten by the escaped Burmese, that started that state law in Florida. Sorry.
Someone earlier drew a comparison to abortion and gay marriage. Whew! I'll keep my opinions on both matters to myself as you probably already know my stance, but let me ask you something... If you were wishing to promote gay rights, how would you honestly go about it to change the minds of more people?
Choice #1: Teach people about the lifestyle (crime rates, disease, spousal abuse, whatever information people may be mislead about, etc.) OR
Choice #2: Have a bunch of militant queers wearing leather chaps making out and chanting "Out of the closets and into the streets!" in front of families and their children?
I shudder when I see the anti-abortion crowds in front of Planned Parenthood with the disgusting posters and screaming at and harrassing clients. It only serves to drive those with other views (or even neutral views) in the other direction. I honestly believe many people would rather draw attention to themselves, even if it hurts their cause, than make a difference. That's too bad...

 

[Legato-Miko]

I wasn't meaning any disrespect...I don't want people shoving snakes down other people's throats, either. I guess I was being kind of pointless in that I just wanted to express how I don't get the "settle down and get used to it" argument. I feel the same way about gays; I don't want gays to get all up in my face either, but I don't think they should have to sit in a corner and not do anything to change people's minds. They don't have to be rude, but they don't have to "settle" for anything less than equality, either. I suppose I just meant that if everyone sat around and got used to everything - simply because that's the "way things are" - nothing would get changed. In other words, I think that flaunting your reptile in a supermarket is downright idiotic, but not being able to bring him/her out to your own backyard is a little ridiculous.

 

[MegF.]

I think what it comes down to, is being sensible and not taking your snake to places where people are going to be upset by them. If you want to change people's minds about something, you need to educate them and explain what's good about your animal. My next door neighbor's kids are crazy about my snake. The first thing out of their mouths when I get home from work is "Snakey, snakey!!". I try to teach them as much as I can about them. They are the future snake owners of the world.
If there are friends that might be a little unsure about snakes, I try and tell them the good things about these critters, and some of them have even talked about maybe coming to see them and try to get over some of their fear.
My riding student just got one, and keeps it at his grandmother's house. She's very afraid of snakes, but she is learning to get over some of that fear, just from being around his corn and learning about her.
It takes time, and diplomacy to get people to accept things that they fear. As a gun owner I run into the attitude all the time, so it doesn't surprise me about snakes. I just try to get some of my enthusiasm about these animals to rub off on people, and sometimes it does!

 

[Drizzt80]

Clay, Darrin, elrojo and Meg I can't add anything to your arguments to make them better. Right on!

The only thing I can add for Legato's benefit (coming from a teacher of teenagers ) is to CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES! Yes, we have the freedom to do as we please, but it's already been stated, open confrontation on the issue (by bring a snake in public) is not going to win the battle.

I keep my snakes in my classroom. I have many students (and other adults) that are afraid of snakes. I respect their feelings and don't force my hobby on them. I do try to educate them though. Slowly. Over time, I can get 9 out of 10 students to touch or hold a snake for the first time. Unfortunately, that stat is a LOT lower for the adults in the building . . . hmmm, who votes on the laws? The point is it's not 'in your face'.

I am in a precarious situation, because if my administrators decide that I can't have them in my classroom, I can't have them in my classroom. I can't afford to make waves if I want to keep them there for the benefits to the students that I see.

D80

 

[Clay Davenport]

"That's the way it is, get used to it"? Excuse me for a moment, but I thought that was what's beautiful about America: If you don't agree with something, you darn well don't have to just settle for it, you can go about trying to change it!

We were also all taught from a young age that anyone can grow up to be president. Both ideas are quite correct in theory, but are lacking in application. The American dream and the American reality are two different animals. The former applies until you hit the mid twenties sometime, then the latter sets in.
I'm not saying you should just huddle in a corner and bemoan the fact everyone hates snakes, but also don't deceive yourself by thinking that our chosen hobby will ever enjoy universal acceptance and equality with the more mainstream (i.e. furry) pets.
Sure you can very well change the opinions of some, and that's a great thing, but there will never be a time when someone walking through the park with a snake around their neck will be treated exactly the same as someone walking their dog. We stand a much greater chance of our pets being banned entirely before that would happen.

I'm not saying one should never take their snakes outside if they wish, but discretion is advised, and if there's any chance that anything negative could result, just keep them inside.

 

[Chip]

I just hope this thread made some folks think...

It is important that any of you who care enough to be on this website be an ambassador for our hobby. Teach, learn, make a good impression, and maybe, just maybe we can counteract the few cretins that make the kinds of mistakes that make headlines. Remember, any idiot can buy a snake. It's bad enough when they don't properly house or care for it...

 

[galaxip]

I completely agree with el rojo's latest post.

But I have to say this... I just cannot hold it in....
It TERRIFIES me the "don't wake the sleeping giant" tone some have expressed here. I respect the voices of experience... But sometimes even experienced voices are wrong. Silence is never ever going to affect a positive change. And saying that 20+ yr olds cannot make a difference anymore is utter nonsense.

I agree that respect and prudence are the way to proceed... But I won't walk in the shadows trying to get to the Vet's office. Many more confrontations with an ignorant public are going to happen before the issue of reptiles as pets is permanently decided. The trick is going to be in being prepared to handle those confrontations effectively and positively, when they come. Hiding from such events won't prevent them, and would waste the crucial opportunities they represent to recruit supporters. What we need is a pool of Herpetologist-Lawyers.

The more we foster an intolerant attitude, the less chance we have of surviving it. History teaches this. It sounds melodramatic, but ISN'T. People if you won't stand up and demand your rights no one else will. You can depend on that.
(Rights, privledges, whatever word you're comfortable with, it is all semantic anyway. If you don't take what is rightfully yours someone WILL come along and lock it away)

By the way:
The average age of a US president has to be 55+. So you 20 yr olds have around 35 years to get prepared. Since the youngest president was 35 yr old, it proves this is plenty of time to both lose the fatalistic I'll-never-amount-to-anything attitude, and to apply yourself to doing what is needed to acheive the goal.

If you get your act together... I'll vote for ya. The thing is, the average 20 yr old wants to run for president without any background first. So please try running for mayor or state senate or something, first. Build up to it. Have some patience. You don't need to change the world overnight to change it in profound ways.

Anyone ever see the movie "Colors"? I say we WALK down the hill and #$%@ 'em all.

 

[nica_chick412]

WOW

I really enjoyed this debate. You are all so passionate about your opinions. I have to say that I respect everyone's opinion. I have never thought about certain issues before. Great debate and very thought provoking.

 

[charcoal_mots]

what i'm doing in my community is taking my snake with me to the park and sitting on a desk and i keep it in a little plastic container with a couple of hides and a water dish. I have a sign that says... SNAKE... beside me and anyone that comes and tells me to take it home i ignore.But anyone that wants to learn I teach. Atleast to the extent of my knowledge.

Charcoal_mots

 

[Bibz]

Re: Hate the herp laws, huh folks?

Choice #2: Have a bunch of militant queers wearing leather chaps making out and chanting "Out of the closets and into the streets!" in front of families and their children?

Ok i just found that kinda funny, i don't want to shock anyone or anything so i'll just say this.

I live in montreal and each year ther is that Gay parade in the middle of the city where all those gays (and lesbians, but we see more gays) go there and parade. A lot of them are actually wearing leather suits and all. It's very popular here lot of people are going ther and all.

Anyway were not here to discuss gay rights

Anyway i agreed with you all, we must not hide our snakes, but we must not be stupid with them either, finding the good balance between this is the key.

BTW i really like that snake in the classroom thing, teaching childrens about snake is good since they wont fear them later, and maybe they'll want one and them educate their parents about them.

And remember childrens are our future so if we can teach them to like snake, later they wont kill them !



PS. i NEVER tought that my first post would bring such a big contreversy !