Basic Project Questions

[RedRaydin]

Hey guys,

Sorry to bug all you long time breeders. But after reading I think I have a basic understanding of this project I am going to attempt. It will not be for about another 3-4 years or so though. I have a yearling Amel (unsexed, which I will get sexed before purchasing the partner), don't know if it has any hets but I doubt it since I got it from Petco. Anyway, I am going to pick up an opposite sex snow probably sometime in January or December. When I cross these two pending hets I would get:

100% normals, 50% het for amel, 50% het for snow

How does the anery gene play into this project? Or does it not play into it at all? I haven't figured out exactly how you get a snow by looking at other threads. In other words, from basic progression of anerys, amels, and normals how do I arrive at a snow?

 

[RedRaydin]

I think I just answered my own question after finding another thread on it. In order to get a snow you need to have two adults that both possess the possibility of het for anery? In otherwords an anery gene combining with another anery gene to produce a snow?

So if Raydin is indeed het for anery, and the snow I purchase is also het for anery... I have the possibility of hatching out snows as well as anerys, and normals?

So 50% Normals het for amel, anery or snow, 25% anerys, 25% snow?

 

[zwyatt]

If you cross an Amel with not hets and a Snow, you would get:

Amels het Anery (aka, Amels het Snow)


If you cross two Amels het Anery, you would get some snows (1/2 I think).



Now if you original Amel happens to be het for Anery and you cross it to a Snow, then you will get some snows in the first generation.

 

[RedRaydin]

So if Raydin does not have hets the pairing will actually be:

100% normals, 50% het for amel, 25% het for anery, 25% het for snow?

 

[RedRaydin]

So I guess my big question is what's the genetic difference between a snow and a anery?

Because I get this whole het for anery thing. Basically if both parents are het for anery or have this gene as a recessive gene (gene not displayed in the parent, but internal/ possible of passing trait along?) then the pairing can produce a snow? Dominant is the visual trait of the particular snake?

 

[batwrangler]

So I guess my big question is what's the genetic difference between a snow and a anery?

Because I get this whole het for anery thing. Basically if both parents are het for anery or have this gene as a recessive gene (gene not displayed in the parent, but internal/ possible of passing trait along?) then the pairing can produce a snow? Dominant is the visual trait of the particular snake?

The short answer is:
A snow is an anery that is also an amel. The anery takes the red out of the normal/wild/classic color and the amel take the black out, leaving you with a white snake.

 

[RedRaydin]

So in a way the snow possesses a split dominant gene per say... if there is such a thing. Because it is showing both amel and anery characteristics?

 

[batwrangler]

So if Raydin does not have hets the pairing will actually be:

100% normals, 50% het for amel, 25% het for anery, 25% het for snow?

Raydin being an amel is homo for amel, and gives one amel gene to each of his offspring. His mate being snow is homo for amel AND homo for anery, and so gives one amel gene AND one anery gene to each of her offspring.

This means that every snake in the resulting clutch will be homo amel (one amel from each parent) and het anery (one anery from mom).

If Raydin is het for anery, then half his offspring would get one anery gene from him as well as from mom. In that cause, half the babies will be snow (having gotten one amel and one anery from Raydin and one amel and one anery gene from mom). The other half will be amel het for anery.

 

[RedRaydin]

So overall.... my final conclusion, someone please say right or wrong here:

To get a snow, you need both snakes to be het for anery?

So to get a bloodred both snakes have to be het for amel because it would make the red color really stand out?

 

[batwrangler]

So in a way the snow possesses a split dominant gene per say... if there is such a thing. Because it is showing both amel and anery characteristics?

Not quite. The amel and anery genes don't share the same locus, so they are completely independant of each other. Dominance only really applies to genes that share a single locus.

A snow is simply a snake that is homozygous for BOTH anery and amel.

 

[batwrangler]

So overall.... my final conclusion, someone please say right or wrong here:

To get a snow, you need both snakes to be het for anery?

So to get a bloodred both snakes have to be het for amel because it would make the red color really stand out?

Bloodred is yet another gene at a different locus and it not only refers to very dark red snakes (achieved through selective breeding) and a diffusion of pattern accompanied by a plain (unchecked) belly with is plain genetics.

If you haven't already, you should read the genetics faq at http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28343.

To get a bloodred snake, you have to start out with snakes that are either bloodred or het for blood red.

 

[batwrangler]

So I guess my big question is what's the genetic difference between a snow and a anery?

Because I get this whole het for anery thing. Basically if both parents are het for anery or have this gene as a recessive gene (gene not displayed in the parent, but internal/ possible of passing trait along?) then the pairing can produce a snow? Dominant is the visual trait of the particular snake?

How a snake looks is its phenotype. What genes a snake carries (regardless of whether they are showing the traits or not) is its genotype.

Dominance refers to how certain traits are inhereted. Most of the traits we're working with are simple recessive or dominant traits. This means that the traits are governed by single gene pairs, rather than groups of genes.

Each gene pair is made up of one gene inhereted from the father and one gene inhereted from the mother.

If a trait is dominant, then all a snake needs to show that trait is one gene in the pair for that trait.

If a trait is recessive, then the snake needs that gene from both parents in order to show that trait. When a recessive gene is being displayed, it's refered to as homo (homozygous) for that gene.

When a dominant gene is paired with a recessive gene, the dominant gene masks the recessive gene; the animal shows no sign of the hidden recessive and the animal is said to be het (heterozygous) for the recessive gene. You can only discover recessive genes if you know the parentage (and sometimes not even then) or if you carry out breeding trials.

 

[batwrangler]

To get a snow, you need both snakes to be het for anery?

You can get snows:

if both snakes are het for anery AND het for amel
if one snake is amel het for anery and the other is anery het for amel
if one snake is snow and the other is either amel het anery or anery het amel
if one snake is snow and the other snake is het for both amel and anery
if both snakes are het for BOTH amel and anery

 

[zwyatt]

So if Raydin does not have hets the pairing will actually be:

100% normals, 50% het for amel, 25% het for anery, 25% het for snow?

No. An amel X snow will give you:

100% Amels het Anery



If you are really interested in this stuff and serious about it, I recommend two things. 1) Pick up a copy of the Cornsnake Morph Guide by Charles Pritzel. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/spencer62/cornprog.html
2) Download this little program. It's free and you can play around with it putting in all sorts of combos of genes and see what the outcomes will be if you did those matings. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/spencer62/cornprog.html

 

[zwyatt]

Sorry, the Morph Guide link is:
http://cornguide.com/the guide.php

 

[RedRaydin]

I appreciate all your help batwrangler. I looked at the genetics a thousand times on different charts, diagrams, etc I'm just horrible with science. I know you guys must get sick of questions like mine especially from a person who has owned one as long as me, but I always appreciate you guys being willing to try and put it in words and on paper for me. Thanks a lot.

So my clutch if Raydin has no hets will be 100% amel's since both will get a homo amel gene passed down. I will also have some snakes that are het for anery since the snow is passing down a homo anery gene.

Therefore in the second gen I will have a chance to produce snows and amels.

Now, if I bred one of the amels (possibly het for anery) from the first clutch back to the snow who has a homo anery gene, I have the possibility of producing anerys as well. Correct? Because both have the possibility of passing down that anery gene, since an anery is homo for anery?

 

[batwrangler]

So my clutch if Raydin has no hets will be 100% amel's since both will get a homo amel gene passed down. I will also have some snakes that are het for anery since the snow is passing down a homo anery gene.

Therefore in the second gen I will have a chance to produce snows and amels.

Now, if I bred one of the amels (possibly het for anery) from the first clutch back to the snow who has a homo anery gene, I have the possibility of producing anerys as well. Correct? Because both have the possibility of passing down that anery gene, since an anery is homo for anery?

Assuming he has no hets, think of Raydin as Amel-Amel, while the snow is Amel-Amel AND Anery-Anery. All the babies will get one Amel from Raydin, one Amel from the snow, and one Anery from the snow. So they will be Amel-Amel and Anery.

If you breed any two of them together (or one back to the snow), you will get some snows.

 

[RedRaydin]

Lol. All in all... my persistent little butt is buying the book, sitting down, reviewing... reading... UNDERSTANDING... haha. That way when the time rolls around I will be fully prepared. And when I pick up the snow I am getting a book about how to breed. Any recommendations folks?

 

[tyflier]

A snow is the recessive of amel combined with anery, referred to as "double recessive". If you breed an amel to a snow, 100% of your offspring will be amel het. anery. The sire(amel) gives every baby an amel gene, and the dame(snow) gives every baby the amel gene making every baby amelanistic. The sire does not have the anery gene(assumed), but the mother gives every baby her copy of the anery gene. This makes every baby amel het. for anery.

Take a male baby, and breed it to the mother, you will get a percentage of snows. OR take a male and female baby, breed them together, and you will get a (smaller) percentage of babies.

A snake MUST have TWO copies of a recessive gene to display the trait(homozygous). If it only has ONE copy of the recessive gene(heterozygous) it cannot display the trait.

 

[jaxom1957]

Anyway, I am going to pick up an opposite sex snow probably sometime in January or December. When I cross these two pending hets I would get: 100% normals, 50% het for amel, 50% het for snow

No. Whatever morph a snake displays will be passed on to its offspring as a het. If both parents pass on the same morph, the offspring are homo and will display the trait themselves. Your amel must pass het amel to all of its offspring. A snow, which displays both anery and amel, must pass het amel and het anery to all of its offspring. Since the offspring have received het amel from both parents, they must be homo amel. Since the offspring received anery from one parent but not the other, they must be het anery. Therefore, all of the offspring are homo amel het anery.