Bloodred or het. Bloodred???

[magila]

I got this girl as a bloodred but I'm still not sure if its is a blood or a het. blood. she looks quit different if you compare here with here brothers and sisters.
her brothers and sister were clearly normals, bloodreds, het. bloodreds and lavbloods and she was the only one that was really different.
her parents were a couple normals het. lav.blood
she has a orange/red head instead of grey or normal looking like her brothers and sister and is also way darker and got a little aberrant pattern.

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

Her belly is clear and her sides look like they are diffused a little. I would say that she's a blood. I also really like the diamond shaped saddles that she has.

 

[bkk1]

blood to me. No checkers.

as far is i know, hets do have checkers en full bloods don't

 

[Drizzt80]

Here's a bloodred/diffused of Serp's (I believe her name is Bloody Mary if I'm not mistaken.) that he posted in an early discussion about diffused vs. bloodred. It may be an example of what you have.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=116204&postcount=61

It really counts towards the variability of what you are going to get, especially when breeding hets to recover the diffused/bloodred gene.

D80

 

[Marcel Poots]

It's a bloodred for sure. My guess is that it is going to be a very good Bloodred. Mark my words

 

[Snakexperience]

Nice!!! Who'd you get it from?

Arjan

 

[kimbyra]

Bloodred! The close ups really show it. Nice!

 

[magila]

thx
I got here from Freek en Hanneke Gillissen; and they got them from someone in the USA. but i don't know who...


Does this kind of pattern often occur on bloodreds or is it somekind of Aztec influence or something like that?

 

[robin h]

nice blood

so he/she is a poss. het. lavender?

 

[magila]

thx, yes she's a 66%pos. het. lav.

 

[HerpZillA]

What is a blood red het?

Hi, my name is Tom. I'm not an expert but have been in and out of the hobby for over 35 years.

OK, Blood red (hypos being one of my favorite) is NOT a simple recessive gene. So the term het is miss leading.

I debate what a blood red is all the time. I don’t want to go into the options in detail, but you have varying degrees of that snake we call perfect blood red. A good sign of course is no black on the belly. I have a 3'+ female with a red belly and she is not a great blood.

I'd really like to see the term het not used in blood reds. OK, I may get hammered for that one. It's just to loose a term to describe a snake.

Maybe picture 10 BR's a 1 being an outcrosed, a 10 being a solid red snake, no black period.

If 4-6 are hets. what is a 3 or a 7?

I wish I had an answer, but there is none. Just a good description of the snake. Understanding the goal of a good blood red.

Add in not knowing exactly what a baby might change into and you really have a tough time unless you see the parents. But even then, genetics may produce babies around the same look as the parents, some better some not so better.

We do this all the time with dogs, beagles with certain patterns, Dalmatians with so many spots. And to a less degree with any snake. I have a 9' burm, very dark. I personally think it is the ugliest burm I've had. But I've had people like the dark color.

I think bloods will reach the point of Brazilian rainbow boas, with people looking for minute color differences to line breed the best orange or red.

The party has just begun.

 

[Serpwidgets]

OK, Blood red (hypos being one of my favorite) is NOT a simple recessive gene. So the term het is miss leading.

There is a single gene that is inherited in a Mendlian fashion and causes the plain belly on bloods, as well as the varying amounts of diffusion of the side pattern. Snakes can definitely be het for that gene.

Some have started calling that gene "diffusion" in order to separate the gene from the sum of what makes a corn a bloodred. (Homo diffusion plus selective breeding = bloodred.)

Others use the word "bloodred" to mean both, any and all things, etc. In the context of the pattern gene being called "bloodred" it would be appropriate to say something is "het for bloodred."

In this case, they are not talking about the 1-10 scale, but whether its genotype is het or homo for diffusion.

Personally I think it just makes way too much of a mess to use the word "bloodred" for everything, especially when there are snakes that are homozygous for diffusion that will never be bloodreds (solid red, patternless, etc) and it doesn't make any more sense to refer to them as "bad bloodreds" than it does to refer to a beautiful reverse Okeetee as a "bad candycane." (And it would also make this big explanation unnecessary every time the word "bloodred" is applied to a gene that does not make a snake turn red. :grin01: )

 

[HerpZillA]

interesting fact on the side diff gene

But, If the BR is polygenic and polyallic, where does one draw the line for het?

In polygenic and lets say 4 genes total (A,B,C,D,) and I have 2 hets both het for (A,B) I would not get any better than the parents. Although a (A,B) x (C,D) cross could in theory produce anything from normals to true bloods.


If polyallic (lets just say for color, bloods have a few things going on genetically) A similar problem arises. Lets say 1 gene has 5 shades (5 alleles).

OK I'm stopping before I get to the combo of both. Until the true make up is uncoded, by breeding combos, or science, It's all some speculation.

But thats why the blood is so cool, it is a math problem inside a snake.

I would love to sit and actually chat or better listen to some people that are more versed on the bloods like yourself. Being a one time math major, and logic problem nut, the blood red is the perfect snake. Plus it is great looking too.

 

[Serpwidgets]

If you're talking about "bloodred" as in the selective breeding (polygenic) equation, then it's just like calling something an okeetee. There are no hets for okeetee because there's no okeetee locus, of course.

As far as the true genetic makeup of a (patternless red) bloodred, it is most likely different for each bloodred. The one thing all bloodreds have in common is their genotype at the diffusion locus.

When you're talking about the diffusion locus there are only three genotypes:
1- D⁺·D⁺ Normal (homozygous wild-type)
2- D⁺·D^D Het (heterozygous wild-type and diffusion)
3- D^D·D^D Diffused (homozygous diffusion)

At this locus any cornsnake is one of these three genotypes. (Unless/until another allele is discovered.) So if it's het it's het... there's no gray area there.

The thing is that some call the mutant allele "bloodred," in which case they are saying it is het for that mutant, or D⁺·D^D.

Also adding to the fun, the diffusion mutant tends to have little, some, or a lot of effect in some hets (i.e. it's variably codominant to its wild-type allele) and it can sometimes be tricky making a positive ID of het versus homo. (Hence this thread asking if it's het or homo.)


Here's an example of a diffused (not bloodred) corn.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31478
His grandma is also a diffused (not bloodred) corn, and the only source of any such genetics.

 

[HerpZillA]

Diffusion 1 locus

Ok, this is the first I have heard of the diffusion portion being proven to 1 locus.

Interesting to say the least. Again I'm an old school herpoid, but for some reason way back in the 80's my biology proff told be to swap a few genetic classes. She said I probably would like it. She was wrong I loved it, but did not have anything to apply it to.

Then about 2 years ago a bloodred fell in my lap and I had no idea what it was. Sorry, shes the big picture, no idea it was so large. she also died after her first clutch of 9 and I had no idea how hard those babies would be to replace. They varied from an okeetee look to really nice bloods, and she was bred to a "het" mainly a diffused pattern.

Anyways, I'll admit I am playing catch up on the info. but nobody more than I appreciates good info.

As for co dom/incomplete dom,, I have a good friend that ALWAYS tells me there are no co dom, in corns the way there are in boas or pythons.

I thought I was told at one time the BR was co dom? for color. Add multi alleles and it does make sense why some clutches vary so much.

Kathy this is all your fault lol. Se reminded me i was not hitting the forum. And this topic is one I can not stop on.

There should almost be a forum for blood red talk. With them being strong now, and so many people using them to breed with other morphs to see what happens. It will be a huge topic and a complex one in a few generations.

Again thanks for the info

tom

 

[HerpZillA]

Sorry about that HUGE pic, fixed, just refresh IE or NETscape

Sorry about that HUGE pic, fixed, just refresh IE or NETscape

I resized the file on the server, please refresh your screen and it will be much smaller

 

[Drizzt80]

It's a bloodred for sure. My guess is that it is going to be a very good Bloodred. Mark my words

Out of curiousity, what leads you to believe it's going to be a really good bloodred? I agree it has awesome diffusion on it's sides, but either the picture is off color, or my monitor is funky, because it looks so much more orange too me. This would be a great one to see grow up as I think it really lends itself to the bloodred vs. diffused debate. It does have incredible diffusion, but doesn't look (to me anyway) like it's going to turn out with so much red. The pic Serp linked to of his hatchling is the exact opposite. I think it's going to be a flaming hot red as it matures, but the diffusion on the sides just isn't there.

Marcel, I appreciate your opinion and comments, but am just wondering what you are looking at compared to what I am seeing. :shrugs:

D80

 

[magila]

always intresting these bloodreds :grin01:

I'm sorry for the terrible pictures, they were made with my phone, cause I don't have a digicam...thats also why the colors are not that good...
I'll try to borrow a good cam somewere and than I'll post some good pictures.
here are some pictures of here sister:

and her brother:

and final another picture of herself:

what I'd like to know is this back-pattern occurs often in bloodreds/diffused?
is it caused by the diffused-gen or is it just coincidence or something else?

 

[Marcel Poots]

Marcel, I appreciate your opinion and comments, but am just wondering what you are looking at compared to what I am seeing. :shrugs:

D80

Well I base my comment on this picture:

On my computer screen the corn shows very good colored saddles. And in my experience the the sides (that show some good diffusion) will easily match the color of the saddles in 2 - 3 years.

Take this one of mine for example:

It has very red saddles. That is why I choose her.

And this is how she looked after two years:

You see, the red saddles are still there but they are diffusing. And the rest of the body color is on it's way to match the color of the saddles.

This is when all the changes are 'done'.

This is a picture of the mother because I have no recent picture of her that will show this.

 

[Serpwidgets]

what I'd like to know is this back-pattern occurs often in bloodreds/diffused?
is it caused by the diffused-gen or is it just coincidence or something else?

That pattern is often found in corns that came from lavender lines, het or homo. It's still unproven whether or not the lavender gene is actually responsible for causing the partial aztecing, though.