Can a snake die for no apparent reason?

[liljunie]

I have three young corns. An albino that I hatched from eggs a friend had, and a candycane and creamsicle I purchased in early October. They are all about the same size. The cream and candy ate a live the day I got them, 2-3 F/T the next week. For a couple of weeks they ate only 1 F/T pinky, then sort of went on a hunger strike. After about 2 weeks I took them to my reptile guy and recommended live pinkies a little bigger, with a little fuzz. They both ate. Creamys lump seemed really big, but did eventually go down. Plenty of poop all around the tank. They refused the F/T again so about 12 days after last feed I fed live mice again. Creamy refused to eat, I actually found him curled around the pinky. That was three days ago. I found him dead in his tank this afternoon (I was going to try to feed him again). Does anyone have any insight on this, or was it just a fluke. I am now worried about the other two, but they seem fine. By the way the albino was hatched Aug 4th, so I would say all three are 3-4 months old.
Thanks so much Heidi

 

[coyote]

Nothing ever dies for NO reason. But any animal can die and there be no detectable cause. You have the option of turning the body over to a qualified veterinarian for a post mortem.

You have my sympathy.

 

[Taceas]

Sometimes hatchlings can die for no apparent reason. Not all were meant to make it, it seems. Some are meant to be food for other creatures.

Were all of your hatchlings housed together? That can cause undue stress which can cause them to go off feed and change behaviour patterns. It can also transmit disease and parasites, which can kill a compromised snake. Stress weakens their immune system to the point they can't fight off things they normally can. Which is why I asked about the housing situation.

It sounds as though your feeding frequency is a bit long in between times, but still shouldn't have accounted for its death. Most people feed their hatchlings of that age every 5-7 days. Then when they get to larger food items that take longer to digest, every 7-10 days. Almost all of my hatchlings this year ate on an every 7 day schedule pretty well. Occasionally I would have one that wanted to skip a week, but nothing 2 weeks in length.

Another thing is that he could have caught something from the live mice. I think the likelihood of that is pretty small, but its still in the realm of the possible.

Now the barage of questions that make things easier to determine..

How many mice per feeding were they getting? You had mentioned 2-3 f/t one week, which is an awful lot for any hatchling.

What is the temps of your tank? Usually this just pertains to regurge issues or partially digested fecal matter. But if its too extreme, that can cause death I'd imagine.

What substrate are you using? Smaller substrates can cause an impaction in the gut if you're feeding in the tank.

How often are you holding them? Most hatchlings don't like to be handled much. And it seems to stress them out more than older snakes. If you're holding them everyday, it could cause them to go off feed like they did.

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. Make sure you clean everything thoroughly with hot bleach water that Creamy had come in contact with. Throw away any absorbative material (wood, fabric, paper). Keep a close eye on the other two for similar signs.

 

[liljunie]

Thanks so much...Lets see if I can remember some of the unanswered questions.
-Yes the 3 were housed together (in a 30 gallon tank).
-I use papertowel for substate.
-They were eating anywhere from 1-3 very small F/T pinkies every 5-7 days a couple of times then the feeding kind of slowed way down.
-I do offer food about 5 days after last feed, then if they do not eat I offer every 3 days until they do. (I throw away lots of pinkies). After about the 12th day I panic if they still haven't eaten and buy the live pinkies.
-I am not sure of the temp in the tank, but my house tends to be on the cool side 60-65, so I have an undertank heater and a red bulb that I keep on at all times (on the same side). They always stay on the warm end.
-Would it be a moot point to separate them at this time??
-I haven't been handling them much, maybe once a week. After feeding I don't touch them for 3 days.
I appreciate the input...I want to keep my other 2 as safe as possible.

Happy Thanksgiving..Heidi

 

[Taceas]

First off, I would suggest that you separate your remaining two corns immediately. Housing together of hatchlings really isn't recommended for a variety of reasons. And now that you have one snake dead, it just fuels my conviction of that even more. Its never too late to separate.

Like I said earlier, stress in snakes can exhibit itself in a variety of ways. Lack of eating, failure to thrive, disease/parasite transmission, or cannibalism. Snakes by nature are solitary creatures, and when we force them to live how we want them to live, they may have other intentions in mind. I would almost bet that if you were to give them each their own home, their feedings would perk up and they'd be totally different snakes.

Cheap temporary housing can be accomplished by utilizing plastic storage containers until you have the means to get better accomodations.

2-3 pinkies per feeding is overkill, imho. You can feed a snake too much. It takes a while for snakes to digest their food since their cold blooded, so if you're in essence continually cramming food into them, you're going to end up with a snake that's not very healthy. They've spent most of their energy into digesting, rather than growing normally.

Most hatchlings should eat 1 appropriately sized item every 5-7 days. When they look like they can handle two, I usually just bump them up to the next sized food. By that age, they should be on at least large pinks if not small fuzzies. Not to mention, feeding multiples on such a short time frame of days is risking a regurge.

If they don't eat after the 5 day period, don't bug them with food on the 3rd day after that. As dumb as it sounds, you can actually stress them out with food to the point they're afraid of it. If they want to skip, let them skip. They're not going to die in the meantime. Most healthy hatchlings can survive a month or two without food. I've got a non-feeding hatchling right now that hatched the beginning of October and just now took its first pink yesterday. Sometimes they know bette than we do what they need. If they skip a feeding, offer food to them again the next time everyone else eats.

Your handling schedule sounds really good. Most new comers to the hobby stress the poor little things out by handling them every day. Which its good to see you have some restraint that even I lack at times.

Oh, I hate to always suggest this, but if you haven't bought it yet, please get a copy of "The Corn Snake Manual" (older version) or "Corn Snakes: The Comprehensive Owners Guide" (2005 edition). Both are written by Kathy Love and are THE source for information about everything cornsnakes. They can be found at most petstores, Amazon.com, or you can order an autographed copy from her website, www.cornutopia.com.

I wish you the best of luck with your little ones. Hopefully its not too late for the others. =)

 

[liljunie]

Thanks so much!!!

I guess I have to stop being so neurotic about them eating.

I'll have to wait until Friday to separate them, I don't think stores are open today to buy heaters

Happy Thanksgiving...Heidi

 

[Taceas]

If you have a small Gladware leftover thing you're not using and don't care to punch holes in that can work just fine as well. Just set that with one hatchling and a small bowl of water in the big tank to stay warm.

Neurotic, heh. Yeah, my friend has killed many houseplants thinking they look like they need a drink. Come to find out, plants don't like to be watered everyday. Killing them with kindness is possible.

That's the beauty of cornsnakes, or just snakes in general. They're not a high maintenence pet. They eat once a week, defecate once or twice a week, don't need cleaned out every week, quiet, non-smelly, etc etc. Most thrive on benign neglect.

Just let them be and let them do their thing and enjoy them that way. Just make sure to feed them once a week and you're all good. Let us know how they do later. =)

 

[liljunie]

Oh!! great idea with the glad container!!! I will keep you posted. I'd like to get pictures up also. Thanks Heidi

 

[Susan]

Misty has taken care of just about everything extremely well, but I would like to add that you really need to know what temps you are housing your hatchlings at. You said they were always at the warm end, which might indicate too low of a temp which will just add to the stress of the hatchlings and interfere with digestion. But please remember, as it has already been mentioned, not every hatchling is meant to survive. I've had more than my share of apparently healthy, eating hatchlings just suddenly stop eating and die within a week or two. I am sorry for your loss and wish you the best of luck with the two remaining hatchlings.

 

[gardenmum]

I agree with Misty, 2-3 is definitely too much for a baby. My normal feeding for hatchlings is one small pink every 4 days till they get big enough to handle two small pinks. After they can handle two pinks they are shifted to 5 day feeding stretch and if all goes well with them they are moved up to one large pink. When they get big enough for two large pinks the change is repeated, I add another day and after some feedings of two large pinks I up to a small fuzzy. The change of amount and size has no bearing on a time schedule or on the age of the baby as all babies grow at different rates, so feed each baby according to its own growth rate.

As far as your tank goes, most people do not realize how warm a UTH (under tank heater) can get under the glass of the aquarium. It is very important for you to have a thermometer IN the substrate over the heater, this is the only way in which you are going to know if the temps where your snake is ACTUALLY putting its belly is in the right heat range. AND I HIGHLY recommend that if you are going to use a UTH that you do NOT use paper towel as a substrate. A UTH gives off more heat then the paper towel can give a buffer for so use a substrate like Aspen bedding and the thermometer should be then placed in the upper layers of the substrate. The substrate absorbs the heat and gives the snake a buffer from too hot of temps and the snake can burrow down in the substrate to the layer that is the best temp for it without cooking himself.

The reason I stress this so much is because a snake will normally not use the warm side of its tank if it is too hot and if they do, they are getting too much heat. Too much heat causes digestive problems just as much as too little heat does. This does not always mean a snake will regurge but they will definitely go off feed because they know they do not have the proper temps for digestion. Think of it this way, a snake in the wild would not last long if they ate just at any time without consideration of digesting so it will only eat when its body tells it that digestion will be ok.

Also on the note of heat source, having a UTH and a heat light over the UTH is a bit of overkill and is actually compounding the heat problem. If you provide the snake with a hide on properly warmed substrate over a UTH, that should provide adequate warmth. If you find that the cool side of your tank is TOO cool due to your home temps, then you can place a heat light source over an area near, but not over, the cool side. I understand your concern about a large tank like a 55 gal. one. I have a 55 gal. tank with a snake in it. I have a UTH under one end all year round but when winter comes and the house is much cooler, I place a heat light over the center part of the tank to keep the ambient temps from getting too cold on the cool side, this actually allows the snake to choose between three temp zones and it works well. After the snake eats it heads for the hide over the UTH and stays there for a couple days, but after that I find it at various times in all three zones, either curled on or under the tree in the cold side or stretch out on the rock under the light or in the hide over the UTH.

So, my suggestion to you is to get some type of bedding made for snakes, like Aspen. Spread a nice layer of it in the tank and get a thermometer with a probe attached and stick the end of the probe in the substrate under the hide over the UTH. You can then decide how much bedding you will want to have there to absorb the heat and give a buffer layer. And don't get over excited about the amount you feed, give them only the size that is appropriate for their bodies and up the number/size of prey as they grow and don't forget to feed less often as the prey size goes up.

Good luck and hope this was of some help.