Can snakes be fed a vegan diet?

[wade]

I watched an old movie yesterday called the Mist by Stephen King. One of the main characters was a lady who was a religious whacko who was trying to convince everyone the horror was the wrath of god.

Religious people often preach, people who eat their meat rare often preach to the well done crowd, vegetarians preach.

In this thread it seems that we have one man who has expressed his opinions and detailed his philosophy on life and all the “normal” people are ganging up on him to tell him how foolish he is. Seems to me the man has a well thought out way of life and is entitled to his opinion.

Amozondoc, I don’t agree with your philosophy but my hat is off to you for sticking to your guns. I think if your ideas work for you and you feel good about it then you are ahead of many people who are wondering through life trying to figure it all out. You have chosen a difficult row to hoe; I admire you for your determination and conviction.

 

[amazondoc]

I raised most pheasants and all turkeys to maturity, so 1200 - 1500 pheasants and approx 150 merriams turkeys. But all my feed was kept in steel bins. Grower crumbles were dispensed with standing galvanized poultry feeders. Sorry to disappoint, never had to use poion or traps for mice. Birds were in 120' X 70' pens as growers and adults. Hatchlings and poults were kept in indoor pens.

I'll repeat yet again -- I don't have any problem with feed in storage. The problem arises with feed scattered after being given to the birds.

I note that you were using very large pens/pastures -- which means less cover for the mice. I think large pens are a good idea, when possible. Unfortunately, I'm working with more than 10 breeds or varieties within breeds rather than just 2, so multiply your pens by about 14 or 15 and you'd get an idea of the space requirements for all the breeding pens I would need. Nonetheless, I applaud your apparent success. I don't necessarily *believe* it, but it's a good goal to aim for.

 

[amazondoc]

In this thread it seems that we have one man who has expressed his opinions and detailed his philosophy on life and all the “normal” people are ganging up on him to tell him how foolish he is. Seems to me the man has a well thought out way of life and is entitled to his opinion.

Thanks Wade! In the interests of open and honest discussion, though, I will stipulate that there is no "man" here.

 

[amazondoc]

Interesting info. What is your source?

Oh, walking problems are well known in Cornish crosses, which are the most common breed used for meat production.

I'll see if I can look up some sources for you today. I've got a lot of things that need to be done, though, so it might take awhile.

 

[wade]

You mean you are a woman???? I take back everything I said.

 

[ceduke]

Oh, walking problems are well known in Cornish crosses, which are the most common breed used for meat production.

I'll see if I can look up some sources for you today. I've got a lot of things that need to be done, though, so it might take awhile.

I can vouch for this from my experience working in a feed store. I don't know much about it, but it seems their bodies develop faster than their joints and they go all bowlegged. it's sad.

 

[amazondoc]

You mean you are a woman???? I take back everything I said.

..........
:nyah:

 

[Emily1188]

Yes, he is JRT/Dachshund! He's a lil monster, but I adore him. We have a real issue with squirrel chasing which I've been working and working and working on, and progress has been minimal. He's improving dramatically in other areas though, so I know we're communicating OK, I just can't override the 'OMG CHASE!' instinct.

Look at this little monster:

He is one of those that walks nicely at a heel, and then when he sees an animal... BOOM! He's just starting "Leave it".

 

[amazondoc]

leg problems in commercial poultry

It's raining, so instead of doing what I'm supposed to be doing I looked up just a few refs for the poster who was concerned about the reality of lameness in commercial poultry. I hope these help with your curiosity. There are many many more similar references out there -- so if you want more info, just look around!

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G. S. Sanotra, J. D. Lund, A. K. Ersbøll, J. S. Petersen and K. S. Vestergaard. Monitoring leg problems in broilers: a survey of commercial broiler production in Denmark. World's Poultry Science Journal (2001), 57:55-69.

"The purpose of this study was to examine the prevalence and the extent of leg problems in broiler chicks reared in conventional production systems in Denmark. ....The mean prevalence of impaired walking ability (gait score > O), tibial dyschondroplasia (TD score > 0), varus/valgus deformations, crooked toes and foot pad burns was 75.0%, 57.1%, 37.0%, 32.6% and 42.0%, respectively.....It was concluded that the prevalence of leg problems in broilers in conventional production systems is very high and compromises the welfare of the birds. One of the main factors responsible is their high growth rate."

Robert H. Fleming. Nutritional factors affecting poultry bone health. Proceedings of the Nutrition Society (2008), 67:177-183.

"....Surveys indicate that 30% of caged laying hens suffer at least one lifetime fracture (a severe welfare issue). ....In broiler (meat) chickens selection for rapid growth from approximately 50 g to 3 kg in 42 d has inadvertently produced skeletal disorders such as tibial dyschondroplasia, rickets and associated valgus–varus deformities leading to lameness."


W. BESSE. Welfare of broilers: a review. World's Poultry Science Journal (2006), 62:455-466.

"Selection for fast early growth rate and feeding and management procedures which support growth have lead to various welfare problems in modern broiler strains. Problems which are directly linked to growth rate are metabolic disorders causing mortality by the Sudden Death Syndrome and ascites. Fast growth rate is generally accompanied by decreased locomotor activity and extended time spent sitting or lying. The lack of exercise is considered a main cause of leg weakness, and extreme durations of sitting on poor quality litter produces skin lesions at the breast and the legs."

 

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

Wow,this thread went in so many directions!Sure took up some "spare"time to read.My take on things,I am an avid hunter/meat eater.This said I have to tell you that I shoot all Year long,so that during hunting season i can provide a Quick/clean kill.I have been told,and seen posts of people telling hunters to buy Their Meat at the store,because no animals were Hurt(WTH???).My sister is a "reformed" Vegetarian(never total vegan)who eats seafood,and fowl.She has no problem with hunting,but i have also known vegans.I can not speak for all vegans,but they had to take a lot of supplements to stay"healthy",but that is their choice,We stayed off of subject.I do not like to kill,but it is necessary to feed my family(and Healthier i believe),and after a kill I thank My God(i do believe,but don't debate,as it is not My concern),and I also thank the animal(yes I know I'm weird)for it's life I've taken in exchange for it nourishing Me and my family.As far as Dogs go,You can raise a Dog to be Vegi
etarian,but should You?A dog will readily eat meat if on it's own,but will not go graze in a field in order to nourish itself,it has no Idea of what is right and wrong,just what it needs(granted they will also eat,plastic toys,and garbage).so a snake eats mice feed it mice.have a great Day.

 

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

Btw,as far as My snake feeding goes,As a beginning herper in the early 80's i only feed live,for 1, I thought it was cool,and 2,only had access to live,as i progressed,i started Killing them so i wouldn't have any more "accidents",Then i found frozen,besides the cost of shipping i found this to be the perfect solution.I now have neighbors that breed rats,and mice for Me,as My funds became very tight.They are fed special diets,and are treated well.I now feed all smaller mice(pinky to fuzzy)live,and I kill all of the larger,then feed.My neighbor actually just(10 mins ago) brought Me 40 feeders,so today is "Chow day" for some of My buddies! have a great Day,and love and Enjoy ALL of Your pets,and give em what they need,Their well being depends on it!
Ryan

 

[Ayin]

Having a large cat population does help. Unfortunately, I have a pack of dogs who would be happy to eliminate cats, but are not all that good with mice. Also, I would bet that your grandma doesn't have as many chickens as I do.

I haven't read *everything* on here, so I do apologize if this was already mentioned. If you have dogs which would not allow a cat to coexist, have you considered getting a ratter or two? A rat terrier can do about as good a job as a cat! My Mom has one - the "mother" cat on her property taught the puppy what to do with rats! - and Flo does an outstanding job of dispatching rodents Mom didn't even know they had.

Not sure how well they would get on with chickens, but since they are a farm breed, I would think that they can be taught. Terriers are pretty smart.

 

[Nanci]

For a minute I thought you said "rattler!" That might have worked, too.

 

[Ayin]

For a minute I thought you said "rattler!" That might have worked, too.

LOL! That could work pretty well, too, and I happen to know someone who breeds albinos....
But I don't think you'd have nearly as much success in training them to leave the chickens alone!

 

[[starla]]

Devil's advocate here, but don't most predators prey on the weak and old before going for animals in their prime?

There are some parts of this country where you see fresh roadkill almost everyday.

Maybe the OP lives in such an area?

My dog is not being fed eat raccoons or porcupines. One deer hit is plenty of food. My dog weighs 30 pounds, he eats 1 pound of meat a day. Also, the meat can be frozen for long periods of time. The 'protein' in dog kibble is comprised of some of the most disgusting bits of leftover meat from the industry and even objects that aren't meat. Rubber tires contain 'protein' in a laboratory analysis. Same idea as the China baby formula scandal. If there is no longer roadkill, we will find the next best option to feed him.

 

[[starla]]

Catching up on a couple of posts I missed earlier --



I personally believe that a dog's life IS more intrinsically valuable than a chicken's life, because the dog has a more complex brain and is capable of more complex perceptions than the chicken. Therefore, I personally believe that it matters more when a dog is killed than a chicken. Nonetheless, I wouldn't personally eat either one unless it was a matter of survival.

So would a person with serve autism be less valuable than a dog, if that dog is more intelligent? Is your species more valuable than another? Like.. white people are more important than black people, or woman less valuable than men? What is the difference? Speciesism is no different than racism when you think about it.

 

[[starla]]

My dog is not being fed eat raccoons or porcupines. One deer hit is plenty of food. My dog weighs 30 pounds, he eats 1 pound of meat a day. Also, the meat can be frozen for long periods of time. The 'protein' in dog kibble is comprised of some of the most disgusting bits of leftover meat from the industry and even objects that aren't meat. Rubber tires contain 'protein' in a laboratory analysis. Same idea as the China baby formula scandal. If there is no longer roadkill, we will find the next best option to feed him.

Quoted the wrong person, sorry. I was responded to the person who was talking about rocks and pebbles being in the roadkill, and roadkill having a higher probability of containing disease. The roadkill is washed and inspected before it's sold.

 

[Lucille]

. The 'protein' in dog kibble is comprised of some of the most disgusting bits of leftover meat

The Indians and perhaps other cultures also made it a point to use every part of the animals they killed.
Why exactly are you enforcing judgments about what parts of a critter are disgusting and what are not? If you are carrying on about levelling the playing field when it comes to valuing one species over another, I find it puzzling how you can vehemently rank the various parts of one critter.

 

[[starla]]

The Indians and perhaps other cultures also made it a point to use every part of the animals they killed.
Why exactly are you enforcing judgments about what parts of a critter are disgusting and what are not? If you are carrying on about levelling the playing field when it comes to valuing one species over another, I find it puzzling how you can vehemently rank the various parts of one critter.

Not that one part is disgusting, but the parts that are not 'good enough for human consumption' are not taken care of as well in a processing facility. The parts weren't disgusting to begin with but after being treated as less than important in a facility they become disgusting.

 

[wade]

You guys are cracking me up...Are we seriously having this discussion? Is the DYK thread locked? Is there nothing on TV?