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Combining Lavender with Caramel?

Susan

Susan

Go Ahead, Make My Day!
I'm pretty sure that some of you have attempted this and am wondering what the results have been so far. I gave up looking under search results because of the volume of posts containing either the word "lavender" or "caramel" :crazy02: ! The reason I'm asking is because I'll have a lavender female ready for breeding before I'll have a lavender (or het) male ready, so I need something, perhaps interesting, to breed her with the first year, and a butter male may just be the one.
 
Both, caramel and lavender are considered anery of sort correct?

I'm sure it's been before, but might make some interesting F2's!

Good luck,
Quigs
 
Not sure about Caramel being anery, but Butters are Amel.
Would there be any chance of snows turning up.
 
Both lavender and caramel are seperate recessive genes that affect the coloration of normal cornsnakes, and neither is associated with anery. Butters are amelanistic caramels. Breeding my lavender female with my butter male would produce all phenotypically normal hatchlings in the F1 generation. If I bred the siblings together, the F2 generation would produce a major migraine and, phenotypically only:

27/64 normal
9/64 lavender
9/64 caramel
9/64 amel
3/64 caramel lavender *
3/64 opal
3/64 butter
1/64 butter opal *

* - No idea what it would look like nor if it could be distinguished from the other morphs at hatching or even after several sheds. i.e. I get to keep alot of hatchlings that year!

And don't even get into all the possible hets that will be produced. The new owners of any hatchling that is sold will just have to be surprised in future breeding trials.
 
I want some.

If you go ahead with that project, email me. I really want to produce butter opals! I have an opal motley project in the works, and that will be fun. I love corn genetics.
 
MMmm The butter opal idea sound very interesting, may try that in a couple of years when my lav's are old enough. Thanks for the thought Susan.
 
Caramel is a hyperxanthic type, meaning increased yellow. Anerythrism is the lacking of red pigment. I believe with the hyperxanthic effect taking place in caramels, the red is kind of shaded out? Being colour blind doesn't help the matter for me I have to say, although if anyone disagrees, I'm all ears.

I do disagree however on the basis that lavender is not related to anerythrism. I don't see any red in lavenders, is that just me?

Also look at this:

Anerythristic 'A' x Amelanistic = Snow
Anerythristic 'B' x Amelanistic = Blizzard
Lavender x Amelanistic = Opal

Snow, Blizzard and Opal seem to me as varying examples of virtually the same thing, although we know they are incompatible.

Lavender has been labelled Anery Type C a number of times, although I see it less these days. I think the name lavender sells the snakes, whereas Anery C just won't.

If anyone has homozygous caramel and lavender, I'd love to get in contact with them.

Regards
Chris Jones
 
I think someone has done it... I'm looking for that info too, and I'll post anything I find out. IIRC Don Soderberg has gotten lavenders and caramels from the same clutch, meaning somewhere in that clutch may have been caramel lavenders. I believe Kat got something of interest this year, too.

----

IMO Lavender and Caramel can both qualify as forms of "anerythrism."

Not all caramels would qualify as hyperxanthic: some of them are pretty much just brown. I don't think I could be convinced that the absence of true reds comes from an overage of yellow. ;)

I think that Lavender qualifies as anerythristic (heh, looks to me more like anti-erythristic) ... and there's obviously something that affects the melanin, too. Seems like an outer layer of melanin is gone (because the shed skin is not patterned) and a lower layer of melanin is diluted or something.
 
Serpwidgets said:
IMO Lavender and Caramel can both qualify as forms of "anerythrism."
Click to expand...

I thought so Serp, I ran and grabbed your book as well as Kathy's book to check it out. I thought it was mentioned in one of the two, but I can't seem to find it. Maybe it was a relevant post here on the forums that I was recalling?

I'm still looking as well.

Quigs
 
OK...confuse the heck out of me! First we have anery A and anery B, then hypo A,B,C,D,etc, and now we'll add another couple of anerys! As long as they remain simple recessive genes, I don't care WHAT you call them! And I'm not convinced that caramel is an anerythristic morph, nor a totally hyperxanthic one either. I think it is a gene that affects the reds, blacks/browns and the yellows...more of a complete, over-all color effect. And as for lavender being anerythristic...there may also be a more over-all effect there too. Too many pinks and oranges in too many specimens, as well as the hypolavs. But the jury is still totally out on that particular morph. All I know is that I like both morphs and am curious as to whether they will affect each other when combined.
 
Hehe...I really like both morphs too. I didn't mean to start an argument, just food for thought! Sorry, if I inadvertantly changed your threads discussion.

Quigs
 
Lavender is different

Well, granted, the lavender does reduce red immensely, if not eliminate it altogether. I think that what was meant is Lavender is a mutation on a different gene-pair,(allele) and it is separate and not compatible with Anerythrim 1 or 2.

Serpwidgets has a book published? Where do I get it?
 
He sure does...it's a great addition to any herpers library! To my knowledge it is only available through him directly but I could be wrong about that.

Here's the link to it...

http://cornguide.com/

Of course if you hurry, I think you may be able to get an autographed copy from Kenster off eBay! But you will probably pay dearly for it...lmao

Quigs
 
What I was trying to say is that anerythrism literally means "no red pigment." Anything with no red pigment is technically anerythristic. IMO Caramels and Lavenders qualify. I personally like their names a whole lot better than "anery C or D" the same as I prefer Charcoal to AneryB, Sunkissed to HypoB, and Lava to HypoC.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that sometimes it can be convenient to group the "anery types" and "hypo types" together as such, and IMO it's not incorrect to view them that way. :)

Susan, brace yourself because someday there will be a known "Amel B" too. Since it's already known in several North American colubrids, it's only a matter of time before we have the second type in our corns. :sidestep:
 
The caramels & butters are my fav morph, but they have totaly confused me. I have put this pic. up before, it is of a caramel looking corn snake but has come from a caramel male & a amell motley. I know the total family tree of the amel motley going back to ALL the grand parents and great grand parents, and there are NO caramels in that line at all. So how come I got this particular colour morph?
I am not convinced that all caramels are a simple resesive trate.
This breeding season I will be doing as some one sugested and put it to an unrelated caramel and see if there are any normals, or in fact to just see what comes out.
 

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Sorry Susan for distrupting your thread but I was just putting over that there may also be a type B caramel.
 
Paul, now you're just making things worse!!

I can't quite get my head around caramel being anery. For some reason that just doesn't sit right with me although I do totally agree on Lavender being a type of anery. I do think that caramel simply affects all of the pigment genes to some extent which is why they are so varying in colour.
 
First off, all of the breeding I have done has indicated that Caramel is a single recessive genetic trait. Of course, as in all the corns, there is some variation in how all individuals will appear, likely caused by other influences that we have not isolated and identified.

Secondly, my breeding trials has indicated that Caramel is overpowered by type 'A' Anerythrism. I have hatched out a few Anerythristic Motleys from full Cararmel Motley parents. The only difference I can see in them is that the Anerythristic Motleys that are also homozygous for Caramel tend to stay pretty much black pattern colored, instead of getting the more bronze/brown color which some of the more typical straight Anerythristic Motleys tend to get. Which, of course, is completely illogical.....

I should throw Hypo (maybe ALL of them!) into the mix to see what it brings out in those Caramel/Anerythristic Motleys. I won't be surprised if the results surprise me. :crazy02:

Thirdly, I have been working on Caramel/Lavender combos for a few years now. Also involving other genes into the mix as well. All I can say is GOOD LUCK figuring out what the babies are when they hatch out. Until you breed them back to "known" genetic types, you will be labelling things with a lot of guesswork and question marks. Then just when you think you have it figured out, something will hatch out to blow your theory out of the water completely.

Yeah, I know..... you all would like to see some photos..... Time is a problem around here...... :shrugs:
 
I think that Lavenders and Caramels should be in the Anery Group. It is hard for people to accept that a Hypo Lavender for instance is a “Ghost” Lavender, but it is. An Amber Corn is also a “Ghost” Caramel. The Lavender and Caramel morphs do eliminate or greatly reduce the red pigment, but also add color to the morph as well. This is why people don’t really accept that a Hypo Lav is a Ghost, because it is colorful and not similar to other black and gray ghost.

I think the Caramel gene should be included in the Anery group, because of the way it combines with the Amel gene. A Snow Corn is Homo Anery A and Amel. They have no black or red coloration. A Butter Corn is Homo Caramel and Amel. They have no black or red pigment, but do have added yellow coloration. To me this puts them in the Anery group, but with a color twist. When they are first born, they can be mistaken for Snow Corns, but after a couple of sheds, the yellow really starts to develop.

The same exact thing occurs with the Lavender gene, when combined with Amel. Homo Lavender and Amel corns do not have any red or black pigment, but have added lavender coloration. This puts them into the same Anery group just like Caramels, but they add lavender color instead of yellow.

We see a lot of secondary colors in Snows and Lavenders, but the main colors of black and red are gone. These secondary colors of pinks, and orange are just now beginning to really surface due to selective breeding. The same could be said about Caramels. The normal yellow color of corns has been selectively bred for in that group, but they do seem to have a gene that adds yellow as well.

I think the Anery Group of Corns includes, Anery A, Black Corn, Anery B, Charcoal Corn, Anery C, Caramel Corn, and Anery D, Lavender Corn. The last two not only take the red pigment away but add a wonderful color twist to the equation. The test for the Anery A Group is how they combine with Amel, very much like the test for the Hypo Group is how they combine with Anery A or any other Anery Group of corn.

The morphs also could be included in the Anery Group by how they combine with the Hypo Group. All four of the Anery Group can be linked together by how they combine with the Amel or Hypo groups as well. They all produce a “Ghost” Type morph when combined with Hypo. Some just happen to be in color instead of black and white.
 
Joe, I think in the future our combining Anerythristic with Lavender and Caramel would prove to be a mistake. Sooner or later the genetics of the corn snake is going to have to be compartmentalized and likely grouped by the manner in which the genes affect the colors and patterns.

Anerythrism does not simply remove the red/orange coloration. Look at one closely. It OVERLAYS those colors with melanin. It doesn't REMOVE anything.

Dr. Bechtel told me upon seeing the Caramel corns that they were actually TRUE Anerythristics. They more closely resembled what you would get from
a corn snake by simply extracting the orange and/or red pigments.

As for Lavender, heck, the jury is still out on that one. What exactly DOES it do to the coloration? It appears to remove something, but what exactly?

As for the "Ghost" label, that is a generic name applied to the combination of Hypomelanism (at least one of them) and 'A' Anerythrism. So to call something a Ghost Lavender or Ghost Caramel, would be confusing to many people. Yeah, I know, I am contributing to this with the Charcoal Ghosts, but I just haven't thought of a better name for them yet. "Phantom" just doesn't ring my chimes......

Wish I had more time for this discussion, so this is just a briefly stated, seat of the pants reaction of mine......
 
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