Come Commit Science With Me!

[Shiari]

Having become phenomenally irritated at a 'advanced care, scientific' feeding guide that also includes age/length/weight that is horribly inaccurate and uselessly broad but is still being touted as the best one to use in many snake groups....

I have decided to put my knowledge and skills as a vet tech and snake owner/breeder to use. I am working to come up with actual, factual, accurate weight ranges based on length (in 6 inch increments) for snakes that are proper body condition (scoring 5/9). And because it can be hard to tell that a snake is becoming overweight before external signs are visible, especially for inexperienced keepers, I'm also working to come up with a simple, objective, guideline for that as well. I have something with high potential on that front already, but want to confirm with more animals.

So while I have the numbers from my own adults, and the adults from a local breeder friend, and some other people online, we definitely want more numbers to work with, and a variety of body types to learn from.

Here's what we need:

1. Your snake's age (in years)
2. Your snake's weight (in grams)
3. A top-down photo of your snake's entire body with an inch or centimeter reference. (see photo below)

All of this information entered in our online form, linked below or copy/pasta: https://forms.gle/QtAwmiFa6fpBewFs8

https://forms.gle/QtAwmiFa6fpBewFs8

We'd love to get data on older snakes, younger snakes, fatter snakes, skinnier snakes. If you've got a corn snake we want their age, weight, and a photo of them with a measuring device.

We've got about 50 datapoints already (a similar, published study in germany used 22 animals) but the more we have the more accurate we can make it.

 

[hypnoctopus]

Cool idea. I recently measured a couple of my adults with serpwidgets, so I submitted those ones, but I'll add others soon too. Any need for hatchling photos/info? Or are adults more of a priority?

 

[Shiari]

Mostly focusing on 2 years and older. My friend and I are going to do some of our yearlings to see if anything appears worthwhile, but the feeding guidelines for hatchlings/yearling sizes are almost universal and with them it's more making sure they aren't skinny rather than fat as they just grow faster rather than bulk up.

 

[Shiari]

This is what I am battling against, and what I've argued with many many people over:

A 2g pinky is 50% of the bodyweight of a 4 gram corn snake. A snake that small should probably be on day-old pinks, which are about a gram. That is also definitely a smaller size than I think most corns hatch at. I've had some 5g babies and a couple that were a whopping 2 grams (which have not survived long term), but most have been 6 to 8 grams at hatching.

My yearlings, and I feel slow, currently range between 24 and 30 inches long. They are between 45 and 66 grams. This chart says that it is reasonable for a snake to already be over 3 feet long and only weigh 50 grams at under a year of age.

It wants you to feed fuzzies at a rate of up to once every 10 days, which is maintenance feeding. I feed weekly, from pinkies through weanlings, and it still often takes my girls well over 3 years to reach 300 grams.

Continuing the age to length nonsense, it says that a 2 year old snake can be closing on 4 1/2 feet without powerfeeding involved. And then we glance over into the weight section and... 500g??? Half a kilo, at 2 years old? Obese. A snake that age being 500 grams would be powerfed and horribly, visibly obese.

And saying that all adult corns should range between 500 and 800 grams? Absolutely not. Most of my adult corns are under or right around 400 grams and that includes several that are 4 1/2 feet long. And that a 3 foot corn should be 500 grams? It would look like a stuffed sausage.

But then we get more fun because, putting to one side that this is implying that corns over 5 feet long are common, if you fed a snake over 5 feet, which will likely fall somewhere between 700 and 900 grams, depending on body type, a single adult mouse weighing 25 grams, you would be severely *under*feeding that snake. Eugene, may he rest in peace, was 900 grams at his healthy weight, and 5'6" long. A 25 gram mouse would be a whopping 3% of his body weight, once every 2 weeks. He maintained his weight well on 80g of prey once every 2 weeks.

So overall, it's a pile of absolute nonsense from a supposed 'advancing husbandry' group that results in underfeeding hatchlings and the largest adults, and encourages people to think obese snakes are a healthy weight.

And nothing drives science as well as SPITE.

 

[hypnoctopus]

Oh good, I'm so glad it's THAT chart. Yes, I've seen it and think it has a lot of issues. It seems to very clearly written by someone with little to no experience keeping corns. An 800 gram 2 year old corn?? Yeah, no, that would be absolutely tremendous.

 

[Shiari]

Science update!

69 individuals submitted so far
53 are 2 years old or older

The majority of the sub-adult/adult snakes have fallen between 200 and 475 grams. This includes snakes that are 54 inches long and not underweight.
11 adults have been above 500 grams, of these 8 have have been overweight (BCS 7-9/9) (73%). The 3 snakes in an 'acceptable' BCS range while weighing over 500 grams have been 66, 56, and 51 inches long.
Only 3 of the submitted snakes have been 60 inches or longer (5.6% of those 2+ years old).
17 snakes were 50 inches or longer (32% of those 2+ years old)
The majority of snakes identified as being in an 'acceptable' body condition (BCS 4-6/9) have had a head length (nose tip to point of the jaw) to mid-body width (as measured from above) ratio between 0.7 and 0.8.
The majority of snakes identified as being overweight (BCS 7-9/9) have had a head length to mid-body width ratio of 0.9 and above.

More submissions will let us refine these numbers even further! A project of this size has never before been attempted, or at least never published, and this is a super awesome opportunity for all of us to learn together!

 

[lmiller23]

Will I get any feedback on the size/length of my snake or feeding suggestions form the survey I completed?