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Dealing with "humanists"
- Thread starter lilwing89
- Start date
ShenziSixaxis
Sticking To The Ceiling
Nevermind, read that post wrong.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
Of course you have heard of numerous examples of released animals. Just go to the H$U$ site, or any other animal rights site, and I am sure they will be happy to tell you that people line up their cars by the hundreds to dump unwanted pythons in the 'Glades (SLIGHT exaggeration, but still...). I would like to know which specific people or businesses let loose exactly what species of exotic animal, other than accidental escapes (not to say that accidents or careless caging is ok, but at least it isn't intentional).
AFAIK, there has NEVER been a citation given for anyone releasing a python in Florida. That doesn't mean that nobody has done so, of course. But it means that FWC could never prove a particular person let go a particular snake. That is why they wanted them microchipped.
I do NOT dispute that some people have released some pets in Florida. I DO dispute that it is a COMMON event, as the humaniacs would have us believe. So please state exactly how many have been released by individuals who found their pet too burdensome to keep or to find a home for. I would like some proof, please, not just AR propaganda. I doubt that you will be able to find the proof from FWC, since they haven't been able to prove a single case so far, to my knowledge.
AFAIK, there has NEVER been a citation given for anyone releasing a python in Florida. That doesn't mean that nobody has done so, of course. But it means that FWC could never prove a particular person let go a particular snake. That is why they wanted them microchipped.
I do NOT dispute that some people have released some pets in Florida. I DO dispute that it is a COMMON event, as the humaniacs would have us believe. So please state exactly how many have been released by individuals who found their pet too burdensome to keep or to find a home for. I would like some proof, please, not just AR propaganda. I doubt that you will be able to find the proof from FWC, since they haven't been able to prove a single case so far, to my knowledge.
Dreamsnake
New member
People in New Mexico have differing opinions about snakes; some will kill first before asking questions as it could be a rattler, others have understood that the gophers and bulls are the "good" snakes and relocate them to the fields and pastures. I've even done snake handling demos for my landlords who think we are a bit odd for keeping snakes, and we've convinced them not to kill a big bull snake they've spotted on another property.
Outcast
ATPSS
Alot of people that I have spoken to around here, who were not of the "kill it because it's evil" group, think that all bull snakes and "black" snakes are good because they eat other snakes. I do not mind them thinking that all black snakes eat others, that is just one less snake that they will kill, though I do try to show them that all snakes are good to have around, and to just be careful while doing yard work.
I personally would not kill a rattler, just because I have children or small animals around the house. I would catch it, and relocate it.
lilwing89
New member
Here in SD we have all kinds of species of snakes. That's pretty much the only herp that survives the harsh winters here! Rattlers are the only poisonous ones, but most of the local population seems to have a shoot first ask questions later attitude. That really irritates me!
I'd never try to capture a rattler, though. Sorry, most people (including me) are not experienced enough to try and handle a [fatally] venomous snake. Now, I wouldn't just shoot a rattler if I encountered it, but if I felt like leaving it would be putting someone's life in danger, I sure would!! I have a 5 year old sis back at my 'rents, who likes to run around in the yard and she doesn't know any better.
I'd never try to capture a rattler, though. Sorry, most people (including me) are not experienced enough to try and handle a [fatally] venomous snake. Now, I wouldn't just shoot a rattler if I encountered it, but if I felt like leaving it would be putting someone's life in danger, I sure would!! I have a 5 year old sis back at my 'rents, who likes to run around in the yard and she doesn't know any better.
Allalaskan
The Crazy Alaskan
Lmao numbers? I never gave ANY numbers. I think you need to get your facts strait if you think your going to be so smart. Not once did I ever quote any numbes.
Here are a few I found with a quick google search.
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-30/...se-pythons-snakes-florida-everglades?_s=PM:US
Juan Lopez reads meters with one eye and looks for snakes with the other. Lopez is a member of the "Python Patrol," a team of utility workers, wildlife officials, park rangers and police trying to keep Burmese pythons from gaining a foothold in the Florida Keys.
Officials say the pythons -- which can grow to 20 feet long and eat large animals whole -- are being ditched by pet owners in the Florida Everglades, threatening the region's endangered species and its ecosystem.
Then you have guys like this, he could have lost this snake, hence it would have been released into the wild, instead he was caught in the act of staging his little show. ANd if you want to get real about it, he actually did release it to catch it later. Either way he did release this animal into the wild.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/outposts/2009/11/python-trapper-faces-charges.html
Matthews apparently purchased the reptile a month before from a licensed reptile dealer and released it to set up its capture to "bring attention to a growing problem of irresponsible pet ownership," according to an FWC news release.
http://pet-snakes.com/release-big-snake
Releasing pet snakes into the wild is quickly become a major problem in the United States. The Florida Everglades have become synonymous with the dumping of large snakes such as Reticulated pythons and Burmese pythons. Releasing these non-native species into the wild damages the eco-system and promotes irresponsible ownership. In this article we’ll explore the following.....
Earlier I mentioned the Everglades but truth is that people release snakes all over the place. Just in the past few weeks two pythons have been found in the state of Maine. It’s fairly temperate this time of year, but absolutely freezing in the winter. Snakes released in Florida will probably live due to the climate. Those released in places like Maine are on a death row of sorts.
Not saying that for sure but most likely released pets.
http://windstar.org/uncategorized/giant-constrictor-snakes-invade-florida/
Biologists with Everglades National Park confirmed a breeding population of Burmese Python in the Florida Everglades in 2003, likely the result of released pets.
Burmese python in the Everglades.
You dont have to read far to read this information. I still do not know why you are being so out rite rude and target me like you have. I mean really, why are you being like this?
And for your information dude/girl what ever you are....What does you "doing right by your snake" have to do with those people who have let there animals loose in the wild? I mean really? Do you just like starting fights online in internet forums? You get some kind of kick from it? And what is even better is the fact you said this....
And yet you, with no facts or experience in reptiles at all and snakes in particular feel comfortable preaching to me about how I, who have done the research and do have personal experience and am damn sure I am doing right by my snake, am neglecting or hurting my snake which you have just told me you actually have nothing about.
Not once did I direct my comments towards you so I think YOU need to back off and get YOUR facts strait. I really dont know who the hell you are to go off and direct an attack towards me as if I had attacked you when I never directed any of my comments towards you. So I dont know where the hell you get off saying, "And yet you, with no facts or experience in reptiles at all and snakes in particular feel comfortable preaching to me about how I, who have done the research and do have personal experience and am damn sure I am doing right by my snake, am neglecting or hurting my snake which you have just told me you actually have nothing about. When I was never even talking to you. So why dont you just back off dude and try READING who I was talking to, I was talking to Dreamsnake NOT you!
Allalaskan
The Crazy Alaskan
I know no one has ever been caught releasing a snake, how ever they have found there way into the everglades. And I am not saying it is common either, but I do believe it has and is being done.
How ever I am not trying to point out or say that snakes should be "regulated" because things like hurricanes will happen and animals will escape.
ANd No I could not find any records of a person releasing Snakes, but there are other animals such as the Snake head (fish) That have been caught ( I will try to find some written citations in a min) trafficing and I believe releasing them. Im not just talking about snakes in general but other animals are released also.
And no where did I say it was "common" to have people release snakes, I stated that it has happened, either they were released or escaped. Either way we have animals in this country that are not native to it.
The snakes in Everglades for example
-Snakeheads
-Asian Carp
Just to name a few off the top of my head. There are cases of animals that have been released and thrive.
How ever comments like Wilomn's are uncalled for, whether or not you disagree does not mean there is a need to get rude and childish.
How ever I am not trying to point out or say that snakes should be "regulated" because things like hurricanes will happen and animals will escape.
ANd No I could not find any records of a person releasing Snakes, but there are other animals such as the Snake head (fish) That have been caught ( I will try to find some written citations in a min) trafficing and I believe releasing them. Im not just talking about snakes in general but other animals are released also.
And no where did I say it was "common" to have people release snakes, I stated that it has happened, either they were released or escaped. Either way we have animals in this country that are not native to it.
The snakes in Everglades for example
-Snakeheads
-Asian Carp
Just to name a few off the top of my head. There are cases of animals that have been released and thrive.
How ever comments like Wilomn's are uncalled for, whether or not you disagree does not mean there is a need to get rude and childish.
Allalaskan
The Crazy Alaskan
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Snakehead-Fish&id=4444658
The Snakehead fish is a native fish to China. Snakeheads first entered the Maryland ecosystem when a local man ordered a pair of Snakeheads in New York's Chinatown. In Asia, the fish is believed to have healing powers when eaten. The man's sister became ill, so he thought it would be a good idea to get some Snakehead fish for his sister. By the time he got back to Maryland his sister had recovered. So he kept the fish in an aquarium for a while. But then against his better judgment, he released them into a local pond. This is believed to be the first case of Snakeheads being introduced into an American fishery.
http://smdailyjournal.com/article_p...kehead fish levied&id=38860&eddate=01/28/2005
The snakehead case against Sung Chul “Daniel” Rhee, 46, of Sherman Oaks, and his Assi Super Inc. store, was the largest in California. The penalties follow guilty pleas in federal and state court for importing and selling the live fish.
http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/98753699.html?newsWatchDate=7-16-2010
Animals have and will be released. Prove me they are not.
This thread has been taken way off topic.
The Snakehead fish is a native fish to China. Snakeheads first entered the Maryland ecosystem when a local man ordered a pair of Snakeheads in New York's Chinatown. In Asia, the fish is believed to have healing powers when eaten. The man's sister became ill, so he thought it would be a good idea to get some Snakehead fish for his sister. By the time he got back to Maryland his sister had recovered. So he kept the fish in an aquarium for a while. But then against his better judgment, he released them into a local pond. This is believed to be the first case of Snakeheads being introduced into an American fishery.
http://smdailyjournal.com/article_p...kehead fish levied&id=38860&eddate=01/28/2005
The snakehead case against Sung Chul “Daniel” Rhee, 46, of Sherman Oaks, and his Assi Super Inc. store, was the largest in California. The penalties follow guilty pleas in federal and state court for importing and selling the live fish.
http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/98753699.html?newsWatchDate=7-16-2010
Animals have and will be released. Prove me they are not.
This thread has been taken way off topic.
Windstar wants your money, so they're a good place to go for info. And that first one, with that stupid picture of the alligator and the burmese, yup, no doubt that was someone's pet that was released. I bet the same guy had gators and kept them together and that the one in the picture was trying to snuggle with a wild one to keep warm.
You have not yet answered a single question with a single actual verifiable fact.
You bring fish up, yet who here is talking fish? There is NO doubt that the fish are there, for much the same reasons the snakes are. Storms inadequate housing facilities.
And just so you know, this ain't rude. I just don't have time for people who spout untruths as if they were then get all butthurt when they're called out on it.
I believe Kathy asked you much the same questions as I did and you have not answered her as yet either. Perhaps saying you just had one too many feet in your mouth and that you'll actually verify before spouting next time would serve you well this time.
You have not yet answered a single question with a single actual verifiable fact.
You bring fish up, yet who here is talking fish? There is NO doubt that the fish are there, for much the same reasons the snakes are. Storms inadequate housing facilities.
And just so you know, this ain't rude. I just don't have time for people who spout untruths as if they were then get all butthurt when they're called out on it.
I believe Kathy asked you much the same questions as I did and you have not answered her as yet either. Perhaps saying you just had one too many feet in your mouth and that you'll actually verify before spouting next time would serve you well this time.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
It is true that you did not mention specific numbers of pets released. But you did say:
"You should have told them that, THAT is why Florida is having such a problem with pythons. So many people HAVE let their snakes loose and now they are causing havoc on the local wild life."
To me, that implies that the main reason that Florida is having a problem with snakes / pythons is that so many people have let their snakes loose, since it is the only reason you mention. If I read it incorrectly, I apologize. But that is what it sounds like you are saying.
Remember that people who write articles are often looking to sensationalize whatever info they have so that more people will read what they wrote. It sounds a lot more exciting to say that tons of people are getting tired of their giant snakes and releasing them, rather than saying a few random people have released snakes, which added to the population that was released by a storm, or something similar.
If there were a hundred or more confirmed stories such as the guy who deliberately released the snake in Tampa to cause a commotion (although that one was recaptured, so did not add to the population), then I would begin to believe that it happens enough to really be a concern. But the articles tend to quote rumors rather than provable facts, so they mean very little. In fact, I could write an article that said that many reptile keepers believe that animal rights activists have released numerous pythons in order to "prove" that hobbyists are irresponsible and should not keep pythons. And it would be completely true - many hobbyists (including me) believe that is very likely. But we can't prove it, and our beliefs do not make it true.
The articles also like to include the "wreaking havoc on native wildlife" line, too. When pressed as to what havoc they have created, "experts" usually quote that a few endangered rats or birds have been found in the guts of pythons. But I have NEVER heard any "expert" mention that certain predators (such as raccoons) have become extremely (and artificially) common, due to people creating disturbed habitat that they thrive in. These predators have really wreaked havoc with many types of turtle or ground nesting bird eggs. In a pristine (without human influence) environment, raccoons, opossums, skunks, etc, would not thrive in the numbers they do in disturbed habitat we provide. I would like to hear EXACTLY what percentage of python gut contents were of those types of predators compared to more endangered species. Bill (hubby) has been photo hunting the 'Glades for a long time, and he says raccoons are drastically reduced these days, for one reason or another - don't know why. I am VERY curious as to what effect that reduction has had on populations of endangered turtles and birds, and whether those species have actually BENEFITED from python predation on raccoons? Strangely enough, I have not heard any experts mention this in any way. I wonder why it has not been addressed, whether negative or positive?
"You should have told them that, THAT is why Florida is having such a problem with pythons. So many people HAVE let their snakes loose and now they are causing havoc on the local wild life."
To me, that implies that the main reason that Florida is having a problem with snakes / pythons is that so many people have let their snakes loose, since it is the only reason you mention. If I read it incorrectly, I apologize. But that is what it sounds like you are saying.
Remember that people who write articles are often looking to sensationalize whatever info they have so that more people will read what they wrote. It sounds a lot more exciting to say that tons of people are getting tired of their giant snakes and releasing them, rather than saying a few random people have released snakes, which added to the population that was released by a storm, or something similar.
If there were a hundred or more confirmed stories such as the guy who deliberately released the snake in Tampa to cause a commotion (although that one was recaptured, so did not add to the population), then I would begin to believe that it happens enough to really be a concern. But the articles tend to quote rumors rather than provable facts, so they mean very little. In fact, I could write an article that said that many reptile keepers believe that animal rights activists have released numerous pythons in order to "prove" that hobbyists are irresponsible and should not keep pythons. And it would be completely true - many hobbyists (including me) believe that is very likely. But we can't prove it, and our beliefs do not make it true.
The articles also like to include the "wreaking havoc on native wildlife" line, too. When pressed as to what havoc they have created, "experts" usually quote that a few endangered rats or birds have been found in the guts of pythons. But I have NEVER heard any "expert" mention that certain predators (such as raccoons) have become extremely (and artificially) common, due to people creating disturbed habitat that they thrive in. These predators have really wreaked havoc with many types of turtle or ground nesting bird eggs. In a pristine (without human influence) environment, raccoons, opossums, skunks, etc, would not thrive in the numbers they do in disturbed habitat we provide. I would like to hear EXACTLY what percentage of python gut contents were of those types of predators compared to more endangered species. Bill (hubby) has been photo hunting the 'Glades for a long time, and he says raccoons are drastically reduced these days, for one reason or another - don't know why. I am VERY curious as to what effect that reduction has had on populations of endangered turtles and birds, and whether those species have actually BENEFITED from python predation on raccoons? Strangely enough, I have not heard any experts mention this in any way. I wonder why it has not been addressed, whether negative or positive?
Allalaskan
The Crazy Alaskan
Kathylove, I mean you no disrespect. I respect you and your imput, and I appreciate you not directly attacking me but to simply asking me to prove where I got my info.
I understand what your saying, and I cannot find any actual reports of people being caught in the act or arrested for releasing snakes into the everglades. My point I was trying to get across was that there are animals released into the wild (intentional or not) and since the everglades and the pythons just popped in my head because I had just been reading about it a few days ago. I guess I should have picked a different situation and animal, something that was more proven and with a bigger impact on the habitat.
I know first hand what kind of problem invasive species can do. In northern and western Alaska Northern Pike are native to those parts of the state but not South Central Alaska. In the last 15 years or so we have had a sudden explosion of Northern pike being introduced into the lake and creek systems down here. FIsh and game think that it is most likely from float planes that fly in and out of remote alaska back and forth and landing in the local lakes. The thought is that the small babies or eggs get sucked into he floats when they suck in water for ballast on the floats on the plane then when they land they release the water to adjust the ballast again releasing the pike young or eggs. How ever there are some lakes that are far to small and have no creeks to them that have pike now. For example we have a large pond down the road from us that is far to small for a float plane to land on and it has no creeks in or out. It is completely land locked. Ten years ago it had no fish. Now it has tons of pike in it. Fish and Game says that there is no way pike could have found there way into this pond it had to be stocked by some one and they have not stocked it and will not stock any lake in south central with Northern pike. My original point I was trying to make is that some people do let "pets" go that are not native to there area and some die but some dont, and that some animals can thrive and have a negative impact on native animal life and habitat.
Wilo, You still ignored the fact that you went on the attack on me and was rude without need and that I was not even talking to you. I will no longer waste my time on some one who cannot be civil without calling names and acting like a child.
I understand what your saying, and I cannot find any actual reports of people being caught in the act or arrested for releasing snakes into the everglades. My point I was trying to get across was that there are animals released into the wild (intentional or not) and since the everglades and the pythons just popped in my head because I had just been reading about it a few days ago. I guess I should have picked a different situation and animal, something that was more proven and with a bigger impact on the habitat.
I know first hand what kind of problem invasive species can do. In northern and western Alaska Northern Pike are native to those parts of the state but not South Central Alaska. In the last 15 years or so we have had a sudden explosion of Northern pike being introduced into the lake and creek systems down here. FIsh and game think that it is most likely from float planes that fly in and out of remote alaska back and forth and landing in the local lakes. The thought is that the small babies or eggs get sucked into he floats when they suck in water for ballast on the floats on the plane then when they land they release the water to adjust the ballast again releasing the pike young or eggs. How ever there are some lakes that are far to small and have no creeks to them that have pike now. For example we have a large pond down the road from us that is far to small for a float plane to land on and it has no creeks in or out. It is completely land locked. Ten years ago it had no fish. Now it has tons of pike in it. Fish and Game says that there is no way pike could have found there way into this pond it had to be stocked by some one and they have not stocked it and will not stock any lake in south central with Northern pike. My original point I was trying to make is that some people do let "pets" go that are not native to there area and some die but some dont, and that some animals can thrive and have a negative impact on native animal life and habitat.
Wilo, You still ignored the fact that you went on the attack on me and was rude without need and that I was not even talking to you. I will no longer waste my time on some one who cannot be civil without calling names and acting like a child.
Translation: Yup, I was a tool. I went and ran my mouth like I knew what I was talking about (which I most obviously did not) and did it so loud that someone corrected me. For this mean and rude treatment, I am now butthurt until at LEAST next weekend. Even though he was right. End Translatioin.
Dreamsnake
New member
I wonder if the raccoon reduction also means the Florida panther is doing better? Kathy, in all your studies have you any info on your native panthers?