Diamondback or Mojave?

[The_Thunderer]

My brother was taking out the trash one evening and heard a rattle VERY near his feet. He stepped away from the rattle sound and turned on a light and immediately called me. I caught and released this little guy, but not before taking a couple pics!

Sorry that the pics are practically the same... LOL.
So... what do you think? WDB or Mojave?

 

[airenlow]

I guessed WDB. He's a cute little dude...whatever he is!

 

[desertanimal]

It's a WBD for sure. It has small scales between the supraocular scales rather than a few large ones, full black band just proximal to the rattles (and the basal one is going to turn black eventually), evenly sized white and black tail bands (instead of the thin black ones typical of mojaves), the posterior eye stripe is not posteriorly sweeping as much as in a mojave, no white "eyebrows" at the lateral edge of the supraocular scale like mojaves have, and the pattern doesn't "pop" as much as a mojave. Here's a comparison photo to help.

I've also noticed that lots of WDBs have that cute little white line that bisects the supraocular scale from medial to lateral, but haven't noticed that on any of the mojave photos I've seen. That's just something I've noticed though, and it isn't something that's generally used to distinguish them.

Mojave on top, WDB on bottom.

 

[The_Thunderer]

Hmmmmm... Thanks for that lesson, Steph... I've tried to get better at distinguishing between the two, but only seeing them once in a while keeps me from getting some good practice. I'll keep in mind the "white eyebrow" next time as it seems to be the most easily distinguishable characteristic.

Either way, I love that "every once in a while" I get to help save these guys from certain "death by shovel" around here. I know that there is a big argument that relocating can lead to them dying anyway, but at least out there they've got a chance (albeit a possibly slim one) versus them definitely being killed. The unfortunate thing is that we've got so many kids around here as well as horses - otherwise, I'd just let them be.

A month ago, one of our mini horses was bitten by a LARGE rattler... fortunately she (Maggie) survived after almost a week at an animal hospital and a few thousand dollars later.

 

[Christen]

I was just going to say I always look at the tail but that was good information. I always had my husband relocate them as well. I figured it was better than killing it oo. I had a quarter horse bitten by a WDB. He didn't make it either and I worked in an equine hospital at the time but this was right after anti venom came out for animals and was EXPENSIVE so not many animal hospitals were caring it yet.

 

[tyflier]

It's an atrx. Positive. Scutulatus have the same white stripes near the eyes and mouth as this snake, but on the Mojave, the lower white stripe will extend all the way back to the corner of the jmouth. Also, the WDB has multiple small scale rows between the supraocular scales, and the Mojave has only 2 rows of comparatively large scales.

Here's some referance photos--

Northern Mojave Notice the extended lower stripe that continues along the lip line and the 2 large rows of scales between the supraoculars

Western Diamondback Notice how abruptly the lower white line drops below the lips, and the numerous small scales between the supraoculars.

 

[tyflier]

Looks like desertanimal beat me to the punch. Good info!!

 

[desertanimal]

Looks like desertanimal beat me to the punch. Good info!!

Your pics nicely show the scale differences between the supraoculars. Nice photos!

 

[The_Thunderer]

Thanks to you too, Chris! I believe I asked this question of you before... as you can see, I'm STILL trying to get it right.

 

[tyflier]

Your pics nicely show the scale differences between the supraoculars. Nice photos!

It's easier with captive ones...

 

[desertanimal]

It's easier with captive ones...

HA! :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Yes. I guess it would be. You got me there.

 

[El Jefe]

You guys both have awesome Crotalus pics!!!

 

[tyflier]

Hmmmmm... Thanks for that lesson, Steph... I've tried to get better at distinguishing between the two, but only seeing them once in a while keeps me from getting some good practice. I'll keep in mind the "white eyebrow" next time as it seems to be the most easily distinguishable characteristic.

Either way, I love that "every once in a while" I get to help save these guys from certain "death by shovel" around here. I know that there is a big argument that relocating can lead to them dying anyway, but at least out there they've got a chance (albeit a possibly slim one) versus them definitely being killed. The unfortunate thing is that we've got so many kids around here as well as horses - otherwise, I'd just let them be.

A month ago, one of our mini horses was bitten by a LARGE rattler... fortunately she (Maggie) survived after almost a week at an animal hospital and a few thousand dollars later.

I have heard that relocated snakes don't survive, too. Is there any real research to suggest this or is it based on conjecture?

I have a couple of clinical herpetologist friends, and they don;t seem to think it is an issue. There is evidence to suggest territorialism in some species and evidence to suggest wanderlust. I've never been able to find solid evidence either way, though I certainly don't claim to know anything.

Like you, I take the chance. I relocate rattlers around here fairly frequently. Same as you, we have lots of horses, kids, and ranches, and even self-reliant cowboys will take a free relocation over a shovel to the head these days, so I offer it. I'm always curious if I am helping the animals as much as I like to think I am. I know I'm helping the people, and a relocated rattler has a better chance than a decapitated one, so...

Anyhow, I was just wondering if there was any real hard evidence on this one. Anyone know?

 

[The_Thunderer]

Chris, perhaps my words, "Big argument" regarding rattler relocation and their survivability was wrong... I know I read a post somewhere on here with an link pointing out that they don't do well when relocated. I'll try to find that post.

 

[El Jefe]

I have heard that relocated snakes don't survive, too. Is there any real research to suggest this or is it based on conjecture?

I have a couple of clinical herpetologist friends, and they don;t seem to think it is an issue. There is evidence to suggest territorialism in some species and evidence to suggest wanderlust. I've never been able to find solid evidence either way, though I certainly don't claim to know anything.

Like you, I take the chance. I relocate rattlers around here fairly frequently. Same as you, we have lots of horses, kids, and ranches, and even self-reliant cowboys will take a free relocation over a shovel to the head these days, so I offer it. I'm always curious if I am helping the animals as much as I like to think I am. I know I'm helping the people, and a relocated rattler has a better chance than a decapitated one, so...

Anyhow, I was just wondering if there was any real hard evidence on this one. Anyone know?

[SIZE=+0]There are several studies that show long distance relocation (new area outside realm of old home range) usually does not work. Short distance relocation (within the bounds of the former range) is usually somewhat "successful" but most snakes will exhibit odd movements and will venture back to the previous area and then meet with the shovel, road, etc. again.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]An entire chapter in my dissertation was devoted to translocation (basically the same as relocation with more of a science experimental slant). Here is a small excerpt from that chapter:[/SIZE]

Plummer and Mills (2000) reported that for the hognose snakes (Heterodon platirhinos) translocated individuals exhibited a variance in distance of daily movements six times greater than that of resident snakes. Reinert and Rupert (1999) similarly reported mean activity parameters three to five times greater for translocated timber rattlesnakes than for resident snakes. In addition to greater mortality rates than resident snakes, translocated snakes exhibited atypical movement patterns consisting of extensive travel, often with a unidirectional bearing (Nowak 1998; Reinert and Rupert 1999; Plummer and Mills 2000).

Nowak, E. M. 1998. Implications of nuisance rattlesnake relocation at Montezuma Castle National Monument. Sonoran Herpetologist. 11:2-5.

Plummer, M. V. and N. E. Mills. 2000. Spatial ecology and survivorship of resident and translocated hognose snakes (Heterodon platirhinos). Journal of Herpetology. 34:565-575.

Reinert, H. K. and R. R. Rupert Jr. 1999. Impacts of Translocation on Behavior and Survival of Timber Rattlesnakes, Crotalus horridus. Journal of Herpetology 33:45-61.

HOWEVER, my own research on timber rattlesnakes in the foothills of South Carolina has shown that translocation seems to be a viable method. I have one individual that was implanted with a radio transmitter in 2007 and then translocated and he is still alive and continues to utilize the new area without ever returning to the old area or making abnormal movements as seen in other studies. I have similar results with another male from 2008 and we released two more in 2010 that appear to be acting the same way.

 

[The_Thunderer]

I couldn't find that link I was speaking of here on CS.com where there was a discussion about the pros and cons of relocationing, Chris... BUT, I did a quick search and found this article by Michael Smith and this article by several authors that I don't have time right now to list... Pretty interesting reading.

I understand that to relocate them may ultimately lead to their "unnatural demise" but its either that or a very certain death at the hands of my co-workers.

 

[The_Thunderer]

Part of that second article makes me wonder if I'm doing more harm than good... with the result being "overload" on suitable habitats of these snakes. Sheesh... damned if I do, damned if I don't.

 

[tyflier]

Some good information coming here...

I always try to move a rattler as little as possible. The nearest location where they aren't in immediate proximity to houses. Luckily, around here that isn;t hard to do because most of the rattlers found around homes are on the edge of the desert anyhow. Lot's of open area here. A few hundred yards away is all that's needed. I realize that this close means the snakes may come back, and I tell the client that and give them my number to cal me if they see it again or another one. I've always done this because of the drain on resources that Fred mentioned.

Definitely some good reading material to go over. Thanks guys!

 

[MegF.]

I was really thinking the snake was a mojave. Looked like all the ones I've seen, but the differences are pretty subtle. Beautiful snake though. I usually move snakes within an area that would still be within their normal territory and I know my friend would make sure that any snakes he removed from a den area were returned to that den area should they not adapt to captivity well. They were all marked to be sure that he knew which came from what. I rarely have to move a snake more than a few hundred yards either because although there might be homes around, they are usually on farm properties and I can put them where no one will easily find them.

 

[tyflier]

I was really thinking the snake was a mojave. Looked like all the ones I've seen, but the differences are pretty subtle. Beautiful snake though. I usually move snakes within an area that would still be within their normal territory and I know my friend would make sure that any snakes he removed from a den area were returned to that den area should they not adapt to captivity well. They were all marked to be sure that he knew which came from what. I rarely have to move a snake more than a few hundred yards either because although there might be homes around, they are usually on farm properties and I can put them where no one will easily find them.

The difference between many rattlers that share habitat are subtle, but once you know what to look for, it gets fairly easy. There are even visual cues between different subspecies if you know what to look for.

For example, the Mojave Desert Sidewinder has a brown rattle matrix(the lowest rattle button), while the Colorado Desert Sidewinder has a black matrix. Otherwise, the two are virtually identical. Between a Southern and a Northern Pacific, sometimes the differences are only visible as young, when the helleri has a yellow-green tail and the oreganus does not, and they have even been elevated to individual species at this point.

Then there are the times when you look at a rattler, and it looks like one thing, but the location should mean it can't be, so you have to make a best guess given habitat ranges. That actually happens frequently around here, with people misidentifying Northern Pacifics as Great Basins. With more than 300 miles and a mountain range between the 2 nearest habitat zones...it isn't likely to be the "wrong" one...

This one--photo courtesy of CaliforniaHerps.com

Has been identified by very knowledgeable herpers as a Northern Pacific, a Great Basin, and a Panamint. Given the location where it was found, it could only be a Panamint, but the color and pattern is easily mistaken by people who know what they are looking at...

Ain't field identification fun?