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Disappearing Pregnancy?
- Thread starter Floof
- Start date
carnivorouszoo
Crazy Critter Lady
I wouldn't have more than 5 in a 10, or 10 in a 20, I figure if you use a 55 you could maybe have 40 or so but not too many of us need that big of a colony eh? I usually figure 2 gallons a mouse. Should give enough space for comfort. Mind for any caged animal bigger is always better
Floof
New member
Oh! Sorry if you took my dog food comment the wrong way, Kc. I meant supplementing the diet with the dog food.. Certainly not switching them completely to it. I feed them the Mazuri Rat&Mouse diet, and buy it in smallish bags at Petsmart. I haven't found a source for Mazuri 6F yet (though, haven't had a lot of opportunity to look). I did look at the Mazuri website and check what it would cost to have the 50 pound bag shipped, but I believe it was $80 all total--way too much for a $20-something bag!
Wow, I didn't think kitten food would be bad; I'd heard (reading here and the occasional google search) that supplementing with kitten food is good for extra protein. I'd been considering lately to just give it to them every other day or every third day, though, since they've definitely been targeting it... I guess I'll give the sandwich bag full back to the cats (lol) and just keep a little for treats. I'll try them with bits of the dog food, but if I notice any uncalled for obesity, I'll probably just do a bit of kitten food and almond every now and then and prior to births... Unless any of you have a better idea. I feel like it is probably a good idea for me to supplement with extra protein and fat and the like, since the diet they are on currently isn't exactly designed for breeders, but, then, I don't know a whole lot about mouse nutrition! =)
Honestly, I think I trust the mice from the one store better than the other... Then again, I don't know how to look for "good bloodlines" and all, just good stores. The one I trust more is the one my male and the cannibalistic girl came from, actually... I would prefer to create an entire colony from their stock (taking into consideration your comments), but was going to get a couple females from the other store (the one that breeds--specifically, for their experienced females). Now you have me sort of unsure, lol!
Anyway, with your guys' comments, I think I'll get my mice from no more than the two stores. I was planning on keeping the Petco pickups in a separate container than the final home for the colony until I got the rest of them, partly because the final tank is large (a 20L), and I still need to clean it and seal a large crack in the side (the reason it wasn't used for a snake, lol) We did end up making a stop at Petco today, and, after some discussion, my mom and I agreed it would work better to just do the planned smaller colony now, and wait on the bigger colony until I could finish fixing up the 20L and get to the stores in question...
Which I'm glad we did, now that I've been able to get to the computer and read your guys' advice.I now have a 1.4 colony, which I don't expect to start breeding for a while--they're all pretty young, and I've read several times just here, from reliable, experienced members, that mice will often choose not to breed until they're old enough. Any input on this? Should I separate the boy for a couple weeks? He doesn't seem interested at the moment; they're being kept in a freshly cleaned 6 qt sterilite feeding tub while their new home gets cleaned and aired out, and he seems more interested in exploring the little tub than in any of the girls. No matter which way I go, I'll be keeping an eye on that boy just because I'll be keeping an eye on the hierarchy among the girls... The colony would just be 1.3 if I hadn't fallen in love with an absolutely adorable sweetheart runt REW, probably hopper/weanling size, and I intend to make sure no others decide to bully her around at all now that they're in a smaller colony than they were at Petco.
Now, where was I? Sorry, lol, I got a teensy bit distracted.
Carnivorouszoo, how do you think that makes my girls dominant? Is that very bad? They breed and get along just fine, and *seem* perfectly happy... What could happen with a colony of "dominant" females? I can't imagine it's bad; like I said, they don't argue or fight. Their reaction to "treats" is the only time the male ever acts remotely "submissive." When one girl goes into heat, he'll automatically go to breed her and doesn't give up just because she gets pissy with him... I have yet to see any fighting or evidence thereof. Girls don't attack the boy when he mates them, and the boy doesn't attack the girls when they get a little hormonal over a treat.
Moving on, I've sort of gathered a vague understanding that mice aren't necessarily prone to inbreeding issues to begin with. My plan to get mice from more than one place was more for a diversity of color, to make things more fun for me if/when I grew any up. My "fun" and the quality of my mice are a couple different things, though.
Concerning nesting boxes: I have been lifting up my colony's nest box on every visit, to check for babies, heavily pregnant females, stashed food... And to just coax out the mice so I can get a good look at them. Since I moved the goldie to "solitary," I've been knocking her loose from her hiding spot on a regular basis (not a box, but a low-slung feeding platform in a wire cage which she has stuffed full of bedding and nesting material), though not every time I go in, since the task is a bit difficult to start. If she's pregnant, I'll be removing the snap-on tube that makes getting in there difficult the moment I notice the tell-tale bulk-up.
Anyway (and I know this is probably confusing with how out-of-order my post is.. sorry! lol)... To clear something up, Carnivorouszoo. I didn't intend to add any new females after the colony was established, but instead to raise up daughters when necessary. Adding a female was probably a crap move on my part, yes, but it worked out well (in the "getting along" aspect, not the cannibalism thing), and I thought (maybe amateurishly) that two close siblings may accept two new additions better than one.. I've noticed--again, just among people and dogs--that social creatures are more likely to target a single newcomer than two, simply because the addition of two is a bit more baffling and inspires more curiosity than hostility. I could be very wrong, and that could be very different for mice, but it was my thought at the time.
Okay, quick question. I'm standing next to the colony in question right now, and a minute ago Cinnamon came out of their nest, ran around a bit, groomed, got water on top of the nest... And then came down from the nest and started wagging her tail, almost like a ridiculously loving dog when you call their name or a scared corn snake playing "rattlesnake" when you get too close. She didn't seem bothered by anything. Her tail flapped around like crazy for a few seconds. Stopped. She sniffed around. Her tail went crazy again. And then she went to hide out in a paper towel roll, as if nothing had happened. The only thing I find notable about the situation during which this happened is she did it while standing within a foot of me, and, for part of it, facing me. It struck me as if she got a bit of an insatiable itch on her tail for a second, but decided to smack it against stuff instead of cleaning or scratching it. Any thoughts?
Wow, I didn't think kitten food would be bad; I'd heard (reading here and the occasional google search) that supplementing with kitten food is good for extra protein. I'd been considering lately to just give it to them every other day or every third day, though, since they've definitely been targeting it... I guess I'll give the sandwich bag full back to the cats (lol) and just keep a little for treats. I'll try them with bits of the dog food, but if I notice any uncalled for obesity, I'll probably just do a bit of kitten food and almond every now and then and prior to births... Unless any of you have a better idea. I feel like it is probably a good idea for me to supplement with extra protein and fat and the like, since the diet they are on currently isn't exactly designed for breeders, but, then, I don't know a whole lot about mouse nutrition! =)
Honestly, I think I trust the mice from the one store better than the other... Then again, I don't know how to look for "good bloodlines" and all, just good stores. The one I trust more is the one my male and the cannibalistic girl came from, actually... I would prefer to create an entire colony from their stock (taking into consideration your comments), but was going to get a couple females from the other store (the one that breeds--specifically, for their experienced females). Now you have me sort of unsure, lol!
Anyway, with your guys' comments, I think I'll get my mice from no more than the two stores. I was planning on keeping the Petco pickups in a separate container than the final home for the colony until I got the rest of them, partly because the final tank is large (a 20L), and I still need to clean it and seal a large crack in the side (the reason it wasn't used for a snake, lol) We did end up making a stop at Petco today, and, after some discussion, my mom and I agreed it would work better to just do the planned smaller colony now, and wait on the bigger colony until I could finish fixing up the 20L and get to the stores in question...
Which I'm glad we did, now that I've been able to get to the computer and read your guys' advice.I now have a 1.4 colony, which I don't expect to start breeding for a while--they're all pretty young, and I've read several times just here, from reliable, experienced members, that mice will often choose not to breed until they're old enough. Any input on this? Should I separate the boy for a couple weeks? He doesn't seem interested at the moment; they're being kept in a freshly cleaned 6 qt sterilite feeding tub while their new home gets cleaned and aired out, and he seems more interested in exploring the little tub than in any of the girls. No matter which way I go, I'll be keeping an eye on that boy just because I'll be keeping an eye on the hierarchy among the girls... The colony would just be 1.3 if I hadn't fallen in love with an absolutely adorable sweetheart runt REW, probably hopper/weanling size, and I intend to make sure no others decide to bully her around at all now that they're in a smaller colony than they were at Petco.
Now, where was I? Sorry, lol, I got a teensy bit distracted.
Carnivorouszoo, how do you think that makes my girls dominant? Is that very bad? They breed and get along just fine, and *seem* perfectly happy... What could happen with a colony of "dominant" females? I can't imagine it's bad; like I said, they don't argue or fight. Their reaction to "treats" is the only time the male ever acts remotely "submissive." When one girl goes into heat, he'll automatically go to breed her and doesn't give up just because she gets pissy with him... I have yet to see any fighting or evidence thereof. Girls don't attack the boy when he mates them, and the boy doesn't attack the girls when they get a little hormonal over a treat.
Moving on, I've sort of gathered a vague understanding that mice aren't necessarily prone to inbreeding issues to begin with. My plan to get mice from more than one place was more for a diversity of color, to make things more fun for me if/when I grew any up. My "fun" and the quality of my mice are a couple different things, though.
Concerning nesting boxes: I have been lifting up my colony's nest box on every visit, to check for babies, heavily pregnant females, stashed food... And to just coax out the mice so I can get a good look at them. Since I moved the goldie to "solitary," I've been knocking her loose from her hiding spot on a regular basis (not a box, but a low-slung feeding platform in a wire cage which she has stuffed full of bedding and nesting material), though not every time I go in, since the task is a bit difficult to start. If she's pregnant, I'll be removing the snap-on tube that makes getting in there difficult the moment I notice the tell-tale bulk-up.
Anyway (and I know this is probably confusing with how out-of-order my post is.. sorry! lol)... To clear something up, Carnivorouszoo. I didn't intend to add any new females after the colony was established, but instead to raise up daughters when necessary. Adding a female was probably a crap move on my part, yes, but it worked out well (in the "getting along" aspect, not the cannibalism thing), and I thought (maybe amateurishly) that two close siblings may accept two new additions better than one.. I've noticed--again, just among people and dogs--that social creatures are more likely to target a single newcomer than two, simply because the addition of two is a bit more baffling and inspires more curiosity than hostility. I could be very wrong, and that could be very different for mice, but it was my thought at the time.
Okay, quick question. I'm standing next to the colony in question right now, and a minute ago Cinnamon came out of their nest, ran around a bit, groomed, got water on top of the nest... And then came down from the nest and started wagging her tail, almost like a ridiculously loving dog when you call their name or a scared corn snake playing "rattlesnake" when you get too close. She didn't seem bothered by anything. Her tail flapped around like crazy for a few seconds. Stopped. She sniffed around. Her tail went crazy again. And then she went to hide out in a paper towel roll, as if nothing had happened. The only thing I find notable about the situation during which this happened is she did it while standing within a foot of me, and, for part of it, facing me. It struck me as if she got a bit of an insatiable itch on her tail for a second, but decided to smack it against stuff instead of cleaning or scratching it. Any thoughts?
carnivorouszoo
Crazy Critter Lady
go with the store that breeds their own. Ask if they can sell you girls from their best line. They should know what you mean if they pay any attention to their breeding at all. I personally would not go back to a place I got canibal mice from no matter their source. Mind that is just me.
Kitten food as an occassional thing would be just fine I thought you were putting it in a mix for daily feeding. As long as its not very high up on your list of feeding it should be ok, like a treat or given just for a few days after delivering to help females recover from birth. It just can't be a main staple in a mix same for dog food.
Tail rattling is a sign of distress. If she was looking at you I'd say you startled her or perhaps she doesn't like you. If you have any new animals in the house right now the smell could cause that reaction. If their tail itches or needs cleaned the grab it and groom it not smack or rattle it against stuff. Something upset her and she was telling it to go away.
I never use nest boxes, keeps the small animals too flighty. I always give at least 2 inches bedding so they can tunnel in it but it never makes them as easy to scare as having a hide. My rodents usually calm down and mellow out within a month without a nest box and I can handle pups from day one this way. Again just me.
Kitten food as an occassional thing would be just fine I thought you were putting it in a mix for daily feeding. As long as its not very high up on your list of feeding it should be ok, like a treat or given just for a few days after delivering to help females recover from birth. It just can't be a main staple in a mix same for dog food.
Tail rattling is a sign of distress. If she was looking at you I'd say you startled her or perhaps she doesn't like you. If you have any new animals in the house right now the smell could cause that reaction. If their tail itches or needs cleaned the grab it and groom it not smack or rattle it against stuff. Something upset her and she was telling it to go away.
I never use nest boxes, keeps the small animals too flighty. I always give at least 2 inches bedding so they can tunnel in it but it never makes them as easy to scare as having a hide. My rodents usually calm down and mellow out within a month without a nest box and I can handle pups from day one this way. Again just me.
Buzzard
two corny
I second that (Carnivorouszoo) Tail rattling is a sign of stress/ distress. Dang Floof if you weren't in WA I would bring you a few breeders. Have you tryed looking for a local breeder. I am sure they could help you get a good colony together. When I got mine the breeder let me choose which ones (color size ect..), and gave me great advise on mine. Of course it is nice to have friends who breed them. I do not know where in WA you live but look for a local Herp. club. Usally they have a member that breeds mice, rats ect. Just another way to get a good start and stock. My breeder and a few friends he knows bulk orders food and supplies too. Which helps out everybody including me. (I order bags of blocks when they do). Just my 2 cents.
Floof
New member
Really, Cinnamon doesn't like me a whole lot... But it was the first time I'd ever seen her rattle her tail. In that case, I guess I can assume she was just a tad bit bothered by the Petco group--her new neighbors. I understand that mice will just grab their tail to itch/clean, that's why I asked about it. =)
Actually, I was adding some kitty food daily... It goes to show how little I know about these runty little things! =) I'll give them bits of kitten food (probably no more than one or two morsels to each adult mouse in the colony?), maybe, once a week... Or, every other week, and bits of dog food (one morsel to each adult mouse tops; dogs are "regular sized bite"-sized, lol) on the alternating weeks.. Probably depending on the current dog food stock that given week. The dogs' food has the potential to go bad fast, so I can't just stuff a ziploc full of it for the mice and expect it to stay good for the several months it would last me, lol. Sound good?
Thanks, Buzzard! I don't know of any actual mouse breeders around here; I do remember seeing the occasional advertisement for homegrown f/t and live on Craigslist, so I'll probably start skimming there... I have a sneaking suspicion the pet store doesn't pay a whole lot of attention to her breeding mice; she has the one large aquarium, which seemed overcrowded the last time I was there... No idea how many females to how many males she has. We have a herp society, but I don't know anything about it except the website address, really... I'll look more into it, though; I'd never had a reason to before! ... And it only just occurred to me that PNWHS would know the ins-and-outs of local food and supply sources for herps AND feeders.. =)
Carnivorouszoo, "just you" or not, that's why I mentioned the fact I'd gotten the goldie from there.. Thanks for the opinion. I had been thinking, sort of at the back of my mind, that if I went there I wouldn't get a female from the same cage to play it safe... Being such a newb at this, I'll go with your view on things. I may still get my male there, since mine is turning out to be wonderful (at least, as far as I can tell), but I'll pass up their females for breeders... I still love the store and they take superb care of their animals, so I can't say I won't get one of their females if goldie proves to be a cannibal and I decide to keep her as a pet, anyway.
Well, this is just irritating. I'm starting to question the fertility of Fudge... She seemed to be starting to show pregnancy just recently, but it's strange... She didn't give birth--heck, she didn't even get big enough to give birth. Her diet hasn't changed. Her figure has slimmed just enough to be seen if you look closely enough, just since I had decided she seemed to be starting to show her pregnancy... But she doesn't seem to be pregnant at ALL. Just last night, I caught the male mounting her several times just in the time it took me to clean the new colony's cage. There's no blood in their nest (I searched thoroughly, and it would be easy to see this time around with a nest made up completely of torn and fluffed cotton pads), and she hasn't slimmed down a whole lot if at all since I left the house yesterday morning (as opposed to both cinnamon and goldie going from super-preggers to lean and mean overnight)... Judging by the male's behavior, she's gone into heat again. What gives? Anyone ever had this happen? Did her pregnancy genuinely "disappear" (miscarriage, reabsorption of the fetuses?), or was she ever pregnant in the first place?
-sigh- This whole mouse thing is WAY too difficult... Lol!
Oh yeah, a bit of good news and bad news from the new colony.
To start, the bad news: Whatever breeder supplies the local Petco screwed up. The runt REW wasn't a runt, but genuinely a big fuzzy/smallish hopper at 9 grams, certainly NOT ready to have been weaned let alone taken from mom, and she didn't survive the night... I'm a bit heartbroken. I'd fallen in love with the little sweetie... I'm not sure if it was hunger that did it (doubt it, since I made sure she got some water-softened lab block in her tummy as well as a bit of fresh carrot) or if the bathroom they're kept in just got too cold for her (more likely; the other mice were too busy going about their own business to mother her and keep her warm).. But I found her huddled up in a paper towel tube in their tank this morning. I'm a bit irritated at myself; I debated several times whether or not I should fashion her a separate home out of another 6 qt tub and keep her near the heater and my bed, but had thought she would probably benefit better from staying with the other mice.. Not completely sure why I thought that, really. This sucks, though. She was going to be my little lap mouse... I was going to pick up a bit of puppy formula for her today, too. The rest of the colony will get strict observation and moved out of the bathroom during days (not nights, though--that dang wheel would drive me crazy!) in the off-chance her death wasn't strictly a consequence of age.
Anyway, the good news: The rest of the colony is made up of two REW females (we could only find ONE colored female in the tank!), a dark brown/black female, and sort of a white-speckled, grayish brown male (I think the patterning is called chinchilla?). The colored male and female are little hellions... They're constantly on the wheel--running properly, and then climbing around on top of it and probably giving themselves brain damage with how often they accidentally slam each other into the ground. The two also like to climb the water bottle in escape attempts... And they like to climb onto my arm while I'm doing maintenance, lol! If my arm gets close to the wheel while one of them is on top, he or she will hop right on--usually the "she." The REWs are much more skittish, but once I get them in hand, they don't try to jump at all. So, temperament-wise, it seems I'm off to a good start with these guys! Lol.
Actually, I was adding some kitty food daily... It goes to show how little I know about these runty little things! =) I'll give them bits of kitten food (probably no more than one or two morsels to each adult mouse in the colony?), maybe, once a week... Or, every other week, and bits of dog food (one morsel to each adult mouse tops; dogs are "regular sized bite"-sized, lol) on the alternating weeks.. Probably depending on the current dog food stock that given week. The dogs' food has the potential to go bad fast, so I can't just stuff a ziploc full of it for the mice and expect it to stay good for the several months it would last me, lol. Sound good?
Thanks, Buzzard! I don't know of any actual mouse breeders around here; I do remember seeing the occasional advertisement for homegrown f/t and live on Craigslist, so I'll probably start skimming there... I have a sneaking suspicion the pet store doesn't pay a whole lot of attention to her breeding mice; she has the one large aquarium, which seemed overcrowded the last time I was there... No idea how many females to how many males she has. We have a herp society, but I don't know anything about it except the website address, really... I'll look more into it, though; I'd never had a reason to before! ... And it only just occurred to me that PNWHS would know the ins-and-outs of local food and supply sources for herps AND feeders.. =)
Carnivorouszoo, "just you" or not, that's why I mentioned the fact I'd gotten the goldie from there.. Thanks for the opinion. I had been thinking, sort of at the back of my mind, that if I went there I wouldn't get a female from the same cage to play it safe... Being such a newb at this, I'll go with your view on things. I may still get my male there, since mine is turning out to be wonderful (at least, as far as I can tell), but I'll pass up their females for breeders... I still love the store and they take superb care of their animals, so I can't say I won't get one of their females if goldie proves to be a cannibal and I decide to keep her as a pet, anyway.
Well, this is just irritating. I'm starting to question the fertility of Fudge... She seemed to be starting to show pregnancy just recently, but it's strange... She didn't give birth--heck, she didn't even get big enough to give birth. Her diet hasn't changed. Her figure has slimmed just enough to be seen if you look closely enough, just since I had decided she seemed to be starting to show her pregnancy... But she doesn't seem to be pregnant at ALL. Just last night, I caught the male mounting her several times just in the time it took me to clean the new colony's cage. There's no blood in their nest (I searched thoroughly, and it would be easy to see this time around with a nest made up completely of torn and fluffed cotton pads), and she hasn't slimmed down a whole lot if at all since I left the house yesterday morning (as opposed to both cinnamon and goldie going from super-preggers to lean and mean overnight)... Judging by the male's behavior, she's gone into heat again. What gives? Anyone ever had this happen? Did her pregnancy genuinely "disappear" (miscarriage, reabsorption of the fetuses?), or was she ever pregnant in the first place?
-sigh- This whole mouse thing is WAY too difficult... Lol!
Oh yeah, a bit of good news and bad news from the new colony.
To start, the bad news: Whatever breeder supplies the local Petco screwed up. The runt REW wasn't a runt, but genuinely a big fuzzy/smallish hopper at 9 grams, certainly NOT ready to have been weaned let alone taken from mom, and she didn't survive the night... I'm a bit heartbroken. I'd fallen in love with the little sweetie... I'm not sure if it was hunger that did it (doubt it, since I made sure she got some water-softened lab block in her tummy as well as a bit of fresh carrot) or if the bathroom they're kept in just got too cold for her (more likely; the other mice were too busy going about their own business to mother her and keep her warm).. But I found her huddled up in a paper towel tube in their tank this morning. I'm a bit irritated at myself; I debated several times whether or not I should fashion her a separate home out of another 6 qt tub and keep her near the heater and my bed, but had thought she would probably benefit better from staying with the other mice.. Not completely sure why I thought that, really. This sucks, though. She was going to be my little lap mouse... I was going to pick up a bit of puppy formula for her today, too. The rest of the colony will get strict observation and moved out of the bathroom during days (not nights, though--that dang wheel would drive me crazy!) in the off-chance her death wasn't strictly a consequence of age.
Anyway, the good news: The rest of the colony is made up of two REW females (we could only find ONE colored female in the tank!), a dark brown/black female, and sort of a white-speckled, grayish brown male (I think the patterning is called chinchilla?). The colored male and female are little hellions... They're constantly on the wheel--running properly, and then climbing around on top of it and probably giving themselves brain damage with how often they accidentally slam each other into the ground. The two also like to climb the water bottle in escape attempts... And they like to climb onto my arm while I'm doing maintenance, lol! If my arm gets close to the wheel while one of them is on top, he or she will hop right on--usually the "she." The REWs are much more skittish, but once I get them in hand, they don't try to jump at all. So, temperament-wise, it seems I'm off to a good start with these guys! Lol.
carnivorouszoo
Crazy Critter Lady
The REWs are probably more jumpy because any red eyed animal has terrible eye sight. It is not necessarily you that is making them jumpy. The coloreds sound to be athletic, nothing wrong with that. Those kind are usually the ones pet mouse people look for to train to do tricks Give them a week or so hopefully they will settle down.
As to the one that looked a bit bigger then slimmed again and just re-mated, it is possible that she was threatened by the disappearance of the female you seperated and reabsorbed her litter, however you said you saw a breeding, you should have pups from her in 3 weeks or so.
I'm so sorry for those that have issues with getting their colonies started. I have just gotten mine going but in a few months anyone in Missouri needing stock can pm me. I wish I were able to help everyone but shipping mammals is outrageously expensive.
Give them a week or so hopefully they will settle down. As to the one that looked a bit bigger then slimmed again and just re-mated, it is possible that she was threatened by the disappearance of the female you seperated and reabsorbed her litter, however you said you saw a breeding, you should have pups from her in 3 weeks or so.
I'm so sorry for those that have issues with getting their colonies started. I have just gotten mine going but in a few months anyone in Missouri needing stock can pm me. I wish I were able to help everyone but shipping mammals is outrageously expensive.
Floof
New member
Lol, I wasn't worried about the REWs being jumpy because of me. I'm just thrilled these guys are as comfortable as they ARE! Lol. I'm not surprised the albinos have bad eyesight, and I'd be jumpy, too, if I couldn't see all that well! I wasn't aware that coloreds had a tendency towards being athletic, though. Cool to know.
I'm pretty sure I didn't see any actual penetration, just mounting. He hasn't been bothering her today, that I've seen, so it's probably safe to say that she has been impregnated by now! =) At the very least, I'm glad to know that I didn't just go crazy... And I can understand the stress issue. First I removed Cinnamon. Then Cinnamon returned. Then, almost the same day, the golden girl (which my little cousin seems to have named Princess... Lol!!) was removed...
Well, this is an interesting development! We have eggs on the ground... But most of them are the wrong species! LOL! My Taiwan Beauty Snake proved that, yes, she IS a girl, by dropping 12 eggs that look (to me) like they may be fertile. I just peeked in on Yelina the Amel corn, and she's in the process of laying hers!!! So, in other words, these mice have to get going quick! =D
I'm pretty sure I didn't see any actual penetration, just mounting. He hasn't been bothering her today, that I've seen, so it's probably safe to say that she has been impregnated by now! =) At the very least, I'm glad to know that I didn't just go crazy... And I can understand the stress issue. First I removed Cinnamon. Then Cinnamon returned. Then, almost the same day, the golden girl (which my little cousin seems to have named Princess... Lol!!) was removed...
Well, this is an interesting development! We have eggs on the ground... But most of them are the wrong species! LOL! My Taiwan Beauty Snake proved that, yes, she IS a girl, by dropping 12 eggs that look (to me) like they may be fertile. I just peeked in on Yelina the Amel corn, and she's in the process of laying hers!!! So, in other words, these mice have to get going quick! =D
Floof
New member
Update!!!
Cinnamon gave birth to 5 healthy babies today. Last time I checked on them, about 2 hours ago, their bellies were full and she showed no cannibalistic intentions/behavior... Even after I reached in and handled two of them. They were probably less than an hour old at that time, so we'll see if they're still there in the morning... I gave them chew sticks and a few pieces of kitten food to gnaw on (made sure Cinnamon had a piece of kitty food before I left) to be safe. =)
"Princess", the golden girl, should pop here in the next week. I'm about 80% sure she IS pregnant, otherwise it's a conjugal visit with the male and another month-long wait. Fudge's latest pregnancy has begun to show, too.
The newest colony is doing well. No one is pregnant yet, but I didn't expect them to be.
I haven't gotten around to starting the "large" colony I've been planning, though. The broken 20L I was going to use is a lot more "broken" than I thought--the glass is completely popping out on one side--so I'm just going to see what sort of DIY thing I can put together with the plastic, stacking storage drawer things we have laying around uselessly everywhere... Or see what I can find on CL that isn't several hours' drive away. =)
Cinnamon gave birth to 5 healthy babies today. Last time I checked on them, about 2 hours ago, their bellies were full and she showed no cannibalistic intentions/behavior... Even after I reached in and handled two of them. They were probably less than an hour old at that time, so we'll see if they're still there in the morning... I gave them chew sticks and a few pieces of kitten food to gnaw on (made sure Cinnamon had a piece of kitty food before I left) to be safe. =)
"Princess", the golden girl, should pop here in the next week. I'm about 80% sure she IS pregnant, otherwise it's a conjugal visit with the male and another month-long wait. Fudge's latest pregnancy has begun to show, too.
The newest colony is doing well. No one is pregnant yet, but I didn't expect them to be.
I haven't gotten around to starting the "large" colony I've been planning, though. The broken 20L I was going to use is a lot more "broken" than I thought--the glass is completely popping out on one side--so I'm just going to see what sort of DIY thing I can put together with the plastic, stacking storage drawer things we have laying around uselessly everywhere... Or see what I can find on CL that isn't several hours' drive away. =)
Buzzard
two corny
Floof, Try a kitty litter box and a home made lid, Let me see if I can come up with a pick.
You can see them in the middle of the shelves. It cost about 15 dollars for the supplies but you can make several lids. The litter box was about 5 bucks from walmart. This holds about 7-8 mice real nice. Wheel won't fit, which kind of sucks, but I put chew blocks and paper tubes for them and they love to climb on the lid.... I will try to get a better shot for you and will get the measurements as well...
You can see them in the middle of the shelves. It cost about 15 dollars for the supplies but you can make several lids. The litter box was about 5 bucks from walmart. This holds about 7-8 mice real nice. Wheel won't fit, which kind of sucks, but I put chew blocks and paper tubes for them and they love to climb on the lid.... I will try to get a better shot for you and will get the measurements as well...
Floof
New member
Stupid mice!!
So, checking on the new litter today, I repeatedly found strange splatters of blood in the nest. All the babies were untouched, though, so I figured this was from the birth and I just hadn't noticed it before...
Well, at 4 in the morning, I was FINALLY getting ready for bed. But, Fudge and the male wouldn't have it. While I was in filling food dishes, checking water levels, and looking for new babies and pregnancies, the male mounted Fudge! This is driving me insane--it seems we've made another FULL circle to come back to the "disappearing pregnancy" scenario! She doesn't look any different from yesterday or the day before, and the only difference in their environment is the new babies. I can't imagine what else would drive the male to mount Fudge, though.. Unless he was really horny but decided to be nice to the new mother. :shrugs:
Well, while I was finishing up, he mounted her several more times... Twice or so in the nest, once behind their wheel, a couple more times in various places, and then, finally, once in FRONT of the wheel. This is where I finally noticed that something was going seriously wrong. A piece of bedding had stuck to Fudge's butt, which I knew shouldn't happen, unless, say, she was defecating as she fell back onto the substrate, and the stool was very loose/wet. I lifted the nest box, which she had automatically run into, and got another good look at the blood on the nesting material as I lifted her out.. Picked the piece of bedding off her bum... And found that she was bleeding! The male had been so violently sodomizing her, she had actually begun to bleed. I replaced the nest, put her back in, and tossed in a handful of chew sticks... I was worried about removing her, and the undue stress it would cause Cinnamon (and what Cinnamon might do to her litter with that undue stress).
When the male attacked her several more times in the course of a couple minutes, I finally decided to remove her... I had been intending to come on here and ask for advice before I moved anyone, but enough is enough. He wasn't doing anything to Cinnamon (and still isn't), so I prepared a freshly washed 6 qt with paper towels, a small food dish, and a toilet paper roll.
Fudge is now hanging out in the new, "sterile" enclosure, giving herself a thorough grooming. I've since cut a larger hole in the top of the lid (I guess it isn't a feeding tub anymore..) and added a small water bottle. I moved her from the bathroom to the top of Yelina's cage at the foot of my bed so I can better keep an eye on her...
I'm not sure what Cinnamon's reaction is yet. She doesn't seem to be paying a whole lot of attention to her babies, but I don't know if that is different or if she's used to having a lot of help from Fudge. I'll see what's going on in the morning... If she abandons them, I'll freeze a 3 and give one each to Fudge and the golden girl to see what they do. The golden girl is definitely pregnant, but I'm not sure about Fudge with this development... Or, if she is pregnant, whether she might just reabsorb/miscarry them with the stress.
So, any ideas on what I should do? Should I be digging up a tube of neosporin, or a bottle of hydrogen peroxide? Or will this be able to heal on its own with some alone time and a clean enclosure? Should I be considering removing her completely from this colony, or just removing the male and growing up a male from Cinnamon's litter? Seriously, any help/advice is highly appreciated. =)
So, checking on the new litter today, I repeatedly found strange splatters of blood in the nest. All the babies were untouched, though, so I figured this was from the birth and I just hadn't noticed it before...
Well, at 4 in the morning, I was FINALLY getting ready for bed. But, Fudge and the male wouldn't have it. While I was in filling food dishes, checking water levels, and looking for new babies and pregnancies, the male mounted Fudge! This is driving me insane--it seems we've made another FULL circle to come back to the "disappearing pregnancy" scenario! She doesn't look any different from yesterday or the day before, and the only difference in their environment is the new babies. I can't imagine what else would drive the male to mount Fudge, though.. Unless he was really horny but decided to be nice to the new mother. :shrugs:
Well, while I was finishing up, he mounted her several more times... Twice or so in the nest, once behind their wheel, a couple more times in various places, and then, finally, once in FRONT of the wheel. This is where I finally noticed that something was going seriously wrong. A piece of bedding had stuck to Fudge's butt, which I knew shouldn't happen, unless, say, she was defecating as she fell back onto the substrate, and the stool was very loose/wet. I lifted the nest box, which she had automatically run into, and got another good look at the blood on the nesting material as I lifted her out.. Picked the piece of bedding off her bum... And found that she was bleeding! The male had been so violently sodomizing her, she had actually begun to bleed. I replaced the nest, put her back in, and tossed in a handful of chew sticks... I was worried about removing her, and the undue stress it would cause Cinnamon (and what Cinnamon might do to her litter with that undue stress).
When the male attacked her several more times in the course of a couple minutes, I finally decided to remove her... I had been intending to come on here and ask for advice before I moved anyone, but enough is enough. He wasn't doing anything to Cinnamon (and still isn't), so I prepared a freshly washed 6 qt with paper towels, a small food dish, and a toilet paper roll.
Fudge is now hanging out in the new, "sterile" enclosure, giving herself a thorough grooming. I've since cut a larger hole in the top of the lid (I guess it isn't a feeding tub anymore..) and added a small water bottle. I moved her from the bathroom to the top of Yelina's cage at the foot of my bed so I can better keep an eye on her...
I'm not sure what Cinnamon's reaction is yet. She doesn't seem to be paying a whole lot of attention to her babies, but I don't know if that is different or if she's used to having a lot of help from Fudge. I'll see what's going on in the morning... If she abandons them, I'll freeze a 3 and give one each to Fudge and the golden girl to see what they do. The golden girl is definitely pregnant, but I'm not sure about Fudge with this development... Or, if she is pregnant, whether she might just reabsorb/miscarry them with the stress.
So, any ideas on what I should do? Should I be digging up a tube of neosporin, or a bottle of hydrogen peroxide? Or will this be able to heal on its own with some alone time and a clean enclosure? Should I be considering removing her completely from this colony, or just removing the male and growing up a male from Cinnamon's litter? Seriously, any help/advice is highly appreciated. =)
Floof
New member
Another update
I returned Fudge to her colony a day or two ago (whenever it was, it was about 2 days after removing her). Did the meet-up in a separate, clean container, and let them hang out, reestablish a pecking order, and get used to each other again while I cleaned out their tank (of course, keeping back nesting material so it wouldn't upset anyone). All's going well...
The male got a bit rough with her again the first day, and I considered removing her again when her behind started bleeding again, but, if I removed her, she would have no water bottle--I stupidly, accidentally broke Cannibal Girl's bottle, and Fudge's was the spare. Decided to leave her and see how things were going the next day... By the next day, Fudge's bum had healed up and everyone was getting along splendidly. I haven't seen the male "attack" her again, so I figure there's a fair chance she's either pregnant (assuming she aborted hers again..) or whatever was driving the male sex-crazy has passed since the babes hit peach-fuzzy stage.
I've been weighing the babies every other day or so. Today, they all weighed in between 3 and 5 grams--only one is 5 grams, a couple 3 grams, and a couple 4 grams. Also tried my hand at sexing them... There are 5 babies total. Two light-colored (the fur coming in almost seems gold-colored), and three that are either brindle or agouti (or something along those lines). If I sexed them right, I have 3 females (both light colors and one brindle/agouti) and two males (other two brindle/agouti). I almost put down one of the males today because I'm down to one pink between two pinky-eaters, but the one I wanted to euthanize is the 5 gram one... Not sure if he'd be too big for Rhythm, the pink-eater who might be big enough for peach fuzzies. I'll probably pull one of the light-colored girls (they seem to be the "runts") tomorrow and just hope Cannibal pops soon and I can pull all or most of her babes before she eats them...
Hey, I just got an interesting idea. How well do you think Cinnamon would take to "adopting" some pinks? Cannibal's last litter was about 12... If her next litter is that big, I want to freeze some and raise the rest to large pink and peach fuzzy sizes... Since Cannibal would probably munch down on her litter if I left them, that leaves freezing all of them or giving the rest to Cinnamon... Cannibal should be popping in the next couple of days here (maybe even tonight..?).
Would it be possible to give some pinks to Cinnamon? Of course, allowing them to roll in her bedding, nesting material, and some of her litter first...
If Cannibal pops tonight, there'll be an easy 3-4 gram difference between these pinks and Cinnamon's litter. Will the size difference be an issue if I give a few to Cinnamon?
How many could I give to her at once? She only has 5 right now, but she's probably only making enough milk for 5, too--would it be futile to try giving her more than one or two of Cannibal's pinks?
I returned Fudge to her colony a day or two ago (whenever it was, it was about 2 days after removing her). Did the meet-up in a separate, clean container, and let them hang out, reestablish a pecking order, and get used to each other again while I cleaned out their tank (of course, keeping back nesting material so it wouldn't upset anyone). All's going well...
The male got a bit rough with her again the first day, and I considered removing her again when her behind started bleeding again, but, if I removed her, she would have no water bottle--I stupidly, accidentally broke Cannibal Girl's bottle, and Fudge's was the spare. Decided to leave her and see how things were going the next day... By the next day, Fudge's bum had healed up and everyone was getting along splendidly. I haven't seen the male "attack" her again, so I figure there's a fair chance she's either pregnant (assuming she aborted hers again..) or whatever was driving the male sex-crazy has passed since the babes hit peach-fuzzy stage.
I've been weighing the babies every other day or so. Today, they all weighed in between 3 and 5 grams--only one is 5 grams, a couple 3 grams, and a couple 4 grams. Also tried my hand at sexing them... There are 5 babies total. Two light-colored (the fur coming in almost seems gold-colored), and three that are either brindle or agouti (or something along those lines). If I sexed them right, I have 3 females (both light colors and one brindle/agouti) and two males (other two brindle/agouti). I almost put down one of the males today because I'm down to one pink between two pinky-eaters, but the one I wanted to euthanize is the 5 gram one... Not sure if he'd be too big for Rhythm, the pink-eater who might be big enough for peach fuzzies. I'll probably pull one of the light-colored girls (they seem to be the "runts") tomorrow and just hope Cannibal pops soon and I can pull all or most of her babes before she eats them...
Hey, I just got an interesting idea. How well do you think Cinnamon would take to "adopting" some pinks? Cannibal's last litter was about 12... If her next litter is that big, I want to freeze some and raise the rest to large pink and peach fuzzy sizes... Since Cannibal would probably munch down on her litter if I left them, that leaves freezing all of them or giving the rest to Cinnamon... Cannibal should be popping in the next couple of days here (maybe even tonight..?).
Would it be possible to give some pinks to Cinnamon? Of course, allowing them to roll in her bedding, nesting material, and some of her litter first...
If Cannibal pops tonight, there'll be an easy 3-4 gram difference between these pinks and Cinnamon's litter. Will the size difference be an issue if I give a few to Cinnamon?
How many could I give to her at once? She only has 5 right now, but she's probably only making enough milk for 5, too--would it be futile to try giving her more than one or two of Cannibal's pinks?
Floof
New member
Thanks. That was what I was planning to do--rub them in bedding, maybe let one or two of Cinnamon's litter crawl all over them (and maybe stimulate a bowel movement from Cinnamon's for extra effect? lol!).
I don't know how well Cinnamon will take to it... She lets me fuss around in her nest (and even push her out when I need/want to get at the babies), but I'm pretty sure that isn't a fair measure of whether she would take one or not. :shrugs:
Cannibal still hasn't given birth. It's really irritating... But then, I'm really impatient. =) Assuming she and Cinnamon have about the same gestation period, she should be dropping here today or tomorrow.
I don't know how well Cinnamon will take to it... She lets me fuss around in her nest (and even push her out when I need/want to get at the babies), but I'm pretty sure that isn't a fair measure of whether she would take one or not. :shrugs:
Cannibal still hasn't given birth. It's really irritating... But then, I'm really impatient. =) Assuming she and Cinnamon have about the same gestation period, she should be dropping here today or tomorrow.
I have fostered successfully, and on at least one occasion the litters were about a week difference in age, and that didn't seem to matter.
I have also had an attempt at fostering go horribly wrong and the colony not only killed the fostered babies, but some of their own as well.
So, it can work, but it is a risk.
I have also had an attempt at fostering go horribly wrong and the colony not only killed the fostered babies, but some of their own as well.
So, it can work, but it is a risk.
Floof
New member
Thanks for the input, kc. I wasn't aware they might kill their own babies if they kill the foster babies... Was your unsuccessful foster attempt a more skittish/bity colony? To clarify--do you think the mice's temperament has anything to do with their willingness to foster? I do plan to try it, anyway, but I'll keep a close eye on the situation when I do.
She's used to her 5 peach fuzzies (will be 6 days old later tonight), so how many newborns do you think she could handle in addition to those?
If Cannibal pops during the weekend, I might try adding them slowly over a couple of days to reduce stress... Assuming it isn't too much of a PITA to feed them every two hours until they're added. =)
She's used to her 5 peach fuzzies (will be 6 days old later tonight), so how many newborns do you think she could handle in addition to those?
If Cannibal pops during the weekend, I might try adding them slowly over a couple of days to reduce stress... Assuming it isn't too much of a PITA to feed them every two hours until they're added. =)
I don't really remember details on the colony that ate the fosters as well as their own babies. It might have had to do with them being just a less stable colony in the first place, not sure. I've had an occasion or 2 when colonies I thought were good parents suddenly ate their babies, so who knows why they do it sometimes.
One thing I can say for sure, is that as time has gone on, and I'm now a couple of generations into it, things have gotten MUCH better in that department.
I didn't go back and read the whole thread, but as I recall, Cannibal only ate one litter, right? Personally, I'd give her a 2nd chance.
Also, I'd recommend focusing on getting your mice established for the long haul. I know you are feeling pressure because you have snakes to feed and eggs in the incubator, but you can always buy some, and from what I've read most corns will take f/t as their first meal (I have no personal experience with that). So when you are making decisions about how many babies to feed vs how many to raise up, think in terms of where you want your mouse colony to be going, not which snakes you need to feed this week, and if you need to continue purchasing mice to feed for a little while, it will pay off in the long run by having a thriving mouse colony.
One thing I can say for sure, is that as time has gone on, and I'm now a couple of generations into it, things have gotten MUCH better in that department.
I didn't go back and read the whole thread, but as I recall, Cannibal only ate one litter, right? Personally, I'd give her a 2nd chance.
Also, I'd recommend focusing on getting your mice established for the long haul. I know you are feeling pressure because you have snakes to feed and eggs in the incubator, but you can always buy some, and from what I've read most corns will take f/t as their first meal (I have no personal experience with that). So when you are making decisions about how many babies to feed vs how many to raise up, think in terms of where you want your mouse colony to be going, not which snakes you need to feed this week, and if you need to continue purchasing mice to feed for a little while, it will pay off in the long run by having a thriving mouse colony.
Floof
New member
True. That isn't a good basis, I guess. Cannibal was the friendliest of the group!
I think Cannibal ate two litters, actually. She most likely ate Cinnamon's first litter, and then I caught her in the act of cannibalizing her own, about 4-5 days later. I am giving her a second chance in that she would have otherwise been snake food already... But I can't help but think she's going to munch down on this coming litter, too, so I'm planning accordingly... I'm sorry, I should've said that before... I guess I really made it sound like I'm going to remove the litter either way, huh?
Actually, the only feed vs raising up issue I'm having at the moment is whether I need to gas one or both of the males, or if I'm going to start new colonies with them (and then, whether the females go to one of them or stay with the parent colony)... I fully intend to raise up all or most of the females at least for the next few litters--particularly because Fudge and Cinnamon are getting up there in age. As far as I know, 6 or 7 months old (5 of which they were pets) could be the "prime" of the average female, but five seems like a small litter--especially compared to Cannibal's 12 back in April--so I'm tempted to think she and Fudge passed their prime before they even met their male.
Otherwise, the current issue is with Cannibal's imminent litter--how many get fostered, how many get gassed as newborns, and whether the former will end up being unnecessary for one reason or the other... I'd say my current biggest stress with the mice is whether I'll be home/awake to remove the babies if Cannibal decides to live up to her new name again..
Anyway. Cinnamon's litter is down to 2.2... I panicked a little bit, with Cannibal having still not given birth, and decided to gas the runt (a female) while she was still small enough for my smallest corn to handle... I only have one pinky in the freezer, and the sand boa is the next scheduled pinky-muncher to eat. I was about to move the corn up to two pinks, actually, which is why I went for the 3-4 gram runt rather than one of the 4-5 gram males.
Cannibal's cage got a rinse and bedding change, as well as a rearranging that should make the litter easier to get at, wherever she decides to nest. She got a piece of kitten food either today or yesterday (can't remember exactly), and a little bit of almond after the bedding change... I'm about half-hoping that the extra protein and fat might detract from any cannibalistic behavior when the babies come.
I think Cannibal ate two litters, actually. She most likely ate Cinnamon's first litter, and then I caught her in the act of cannibalizing her own, about 4-5 days later. I am giving her a second chance in that she would have otherwise been snake food already... But I can't help but think she's going to munch down on this coming litter, too, so I'm planning accordingly... I'm sorry, I should've said that before... I guess I really made it sound like I'm going to remove the litter either way, huh?
Actually, the only feed vs raising up issue I'm having at the moment is whether I need to gas one or both of the males, or if I'm going to start new colonies with them (and then, whether the females go to one of them or stay with the parent colony)... I fully intend to raise up all or most of the females at least for the next few litters--particularly because Fudge and Cinnamon are getting up there in age. As far as I know, 6 or 7 months old (5 of which they were pets) could be the "prime" of the average female, but five seems like a small litter--especially compared to Cannibal's 12 back in April--so I'm tempted to think she and Fudge passed their prime before they even met their male.
Otherwise, the current issue is with Cannibal's imminent litter--how many get fostered, how many get gassed as newborns, and whether the former will end up being unnecessary for one reason or the other... I'd say my current biggest stress with the mice is whether I'll be home/awake to remove the babies if Cannibal decides to live up to her new name again..
Anyway. Cinnamon's litter is down to 2.2... I panicked a little bit, with Cannibal having still not given birth, and decided to gas the runt (a female) while she was still small enough for my smallest corn to handle... I only have one pinky in the freezer, and the sand boa is the next scheduled pinky-muncher to eat. I was about to move the corn up to two pinks, actually, which is why I went for the 3-4 gram runt rather than one of the 4-5 gram males.
Cannibal's cage got a rinse and bedding change, as well as a rearranging that should make the litter easier to get at, wherever she decides to nest. She got a piece of kitten food either today or yesterday (can't remember exactly), and a little bit of almond after the bedding change... I'm about half-hoping that the extra protein and fat might detract from any cannibalistic behavior when the babies come.