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Eggs Caving In!!!

axis1

axis1

Fuhgeddaboudit!!!!
Hello & Happy Memorial Day (to my fellow-American snake lovers!)!!

A question to any breeders with experience in egg-care:

I have a small group (maybe 4) eggs out of a recent clutch of 19 laid on 5/21/16 that are caving in as illustrated below.

I tried covering with a paper towel and spraying with water, to no avail, and I'm not certain why as it worked with a previous clutch. It may be because of the position the eggs are in? Just wondering if these eggs have a shot at hatching the way they are or if there is something else I could be doing?
 

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BTW

As you can see, the rest of the eggs seem to be doing fine (I have them in a moist moss that I continue to spray every couple days).
 

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Have you candled them? I have one veinless dud that is caving in even though the humidity is good and the rest are plump. It's possible the bad eggs are deflating.
 
No, didn't candle the ones that are attached because I was under the impression if they turned or rotated too much, that they might drown the embryo. All the eggs that are not in that one clump (stuck together) were candled and appear to be good eggs. I'm afraid to pull them apart (won't they be damaged if I do?). If the ones on top are bad, can I eventually pull them apart?

Thanx for responding so quickly!
 
I use floss to separate eggs BUT it is not necessary to do so unless they are bad and start to rot. I wouldn't bother.
The egg circled in red is bad. The others are possibly bad but I would let them continue to incubate until they show more signs that they are bad like the one in red.
 

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Wow!

Thanx a bunch Daddio (and everyone else who responded!).

I'll toss the one you circled in red and will keep an eye on the others.

You guys are the BEST!!!
 
Oh well, tossed the one circled in red by Daddio; tried to separate the others gently, but it was like they were WELDED on, so I didn't try too hard. Will give it some time, as was suggested, but I even felt bad tossing the one that was bad, since it did have some weight to it and I DID candle it the day Lilly squeezed them out, so it kinda felt like I was killing it! Although I know better than to believe I am harming something, maybe Dollysmom was RIGHT about the oxytocin rush she mentioned in a recent post in reference to handling our snakes!!

Just something that makes ya go, Hmmm!
 
When I was looking into breeding Snakey back in the day, I read and saw pictures of eggs being all wrinkled up like that. Most people suggested incubating them and quite a few people were claiming that they have successfully hatched clutches that looked like that. I am the very definition of a noob when it comes to eggs and breeding but almost every single picture I have seen of a bad egg were all discolored. Those eggs look like a healthy white to me!

I say incubate them until they either start to mold or they start to hatch! Then if they hatch, you sell me one of the babies so Snakey can have a slither buddy!
 
T-SULLI said:
I say incubate them until they either start to mold or they start to hatch! Then if they hatch, you sell me one of the babies so Snakey can have a slither buddy!
Click to expand...

Whoa! Be careful what you ask (or wish) for, as in wanting more corns, since I can attest personally that this endeavor is HABIT-FORMING!! The next thing you'll know is that you'll be dedicating a whole ROOM in your apartment or house just for your sneaky ones (my wife has YET to even touch one of my snakes and we've been together for OVER 15 years, hence the need for an entire room for my vivs!).

Just a friendly warning!

And about the eggs, I would NEVER toss one unless I was certain myself or if someone as knowledgeable as Daddio, Albertagirl, Dragonling, Dollysmom or Nanci, to name a few who have responded to my posts, were certain that they should go. I have only successfully bred my snakes ONCE, last year and I only got 3 eggs to hatch out of a clutch of like 12 eggs! Now Lilly just laid 19 and to lose just 1 so far is pretty good. My incubator is set up just as most breeders here would suggest, so I'm confident my temps and humidity are good. I had a scare with Lilly that makes me thankful I have ANY, and since she's doing well, I feel I am way ahead of the game so far!

In any event, I hope you had a great holiday weekend!!
 
Thanks axis1 for including me in that group, but just to be clear, I don't have breeding experience. While I do know to look for veins in an egg, and even have an appropriate LED flashlight if I ever needed to, I've never done it.

I haven't and don't plan to breed my snakes. Of course I've cut that temptation by having two females, one of which is a senior snake, and one male of a different species. So I have a pretty foolproof population control plan here, lol.

Anyway, sounds like you are doing all you can for Lilly's eggs. Best wishes!
 
Oops!!

Sorry Dollysmom, I probably just got confused about which advice you gave me, but one thing I'm CERTAIN about is even if you don't know the answer to a specific problem, your posts are almost always supportive and sometimes that's just as good as advice, and sometimes even better!! But sorry if you think I might have given anyone the wrong impression.

I just felt I had to give credit where credit is due! :)
 
Hey, you did nothing wrong. It was a great compliment to be included in that group. I just didn't want to take credit that wasn't due, or to pretend that I have breeding experience when I don't. Always glad when I can be supportive. I'll be pulling for Lilly's eggs!
 
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What do you have them in, exactly? I would suggest, next year, use HatchRight. The caving in eggs need humidity, but you shouldn't have to, and should not, spray water directly on the eggs. In an ideal set-up, the hatching media has the right amount of moisture, and then the environment is sealed, with no holes, so you never have to add any more. I bury the eggs about 3/4 in hatch right, and then cover the top with 1-2' of damp very wrung out orchid moss.

Unlike Dadio, I would never separate eggs. A dead egg won't "infect" a good egg. Cornsnake eggs are supposed to be stuck together as a protective measure, to provide a better defense against predators so they can't be picked off one by one, and to give the clutch stability so it can't roll and drown the developing embryos (late in incubation).

At this point, if I were you, I'd get orchid moss at Lowes or Home Depot, and put a layer of that over the eggs, and stop spraying them! Soak the moss in a bowl of water, then wring it out as much as you can. If it feels too dry, it's probably just right. You can redampen it if needed by removing and repeating that, or by dribbling a _small_ amount of water (not city water- you can't be putting chlorine on the eggs) along the edges of your egg box.

Also, make sure the box is sealed- no holes. You should see a very fine mist of water droplets on the sides and lid, but no large drips dripping down onto the eggs. Once a week, remove the cover and gently fan the eggs. I pull back the moss so I can check and fan them.

When the eggs slit, move the moss off to the corners, to give the hatchlings a place to gather, so they aren't rampaging around during the other eggs that are slitting.

Finally, I wouldn't throw out a bad egg till the end. I've seen nice babies hatch out of moldy eggs. And found shriveled dead eggs at the bottom of a clutch that I didn't even know where there.

And- the eggs may or may not dent up to two weeks before hatching, but it usually isn't as drastic as this.
 
Wow! Thanx for the comprehensive & detailed info Nanci! It's greatly appreciated!

I went to Home Depot looking for vermiculite but they had sphagnum moss, which I read is OK. Upon re-reading the bag, I noticed it says Sphagnum "Peat" Moss and I know virtually nothing about botany, so don't know if there's a difference, but it doesn't look the same as what I've seen other mosses look like as it has more of a dirt-like composition, though the label does state that it retains moisture. Last year, without knowing half as much about it, I used coconut husk (what I use for substrate as the snakes seem to have a ball in it) and I kept it moist, but I only had 3 out of 12 eggs hatch. Probably also because I was working 12-18 hour days then and I didn't notice Lilly laid eggs till the next day and they were all over the place.

I will go back tomorrow for either orchid moss or the right kind of sphagnum moss. I will also change the box they are in as I did poke a few holes in the top (I did notice the humidity was kinda high so I thought that would alleviate it! Duh! I CAN be Moron than More-Off at times!).

And tap water? How could I forget that? I saw your post about removing water bowls for gravid snakes which touched on this!! (Ok, so now I feel REALLY dumb!! Like someone who thinks Moby Dick is a venereal disease!!!).

I will begin using spring water ASAP! Hope I didn't mess those poor baby snakes up in any way. I do have a surviving hatchling from last year (Ozzy) who is a voracious eater and is almost 120 grams in the beginning of his 11th month of life. He's healthy in every way and just consumed a large hopper this past Sunday, so I hope it's not too late as I ignorantly used tap water during his entire incubation! (Yikes!! And Crapola!!!)

But thanx again, as I will be using your post as a resource tomorrow when I set up all 18 of the eggs, hopefully correctly this time. I will post an update as an extra Thank You!!

You are THE BEST!!!
 
Peat moss is the broken down (decomposed) from of sphagnum. I only know this because I collect carnivorous plants. It may leech tannins and stain the eggs and the acidity may be way too low with a Ph of around 4.0 (something that is not a worry with the live or dried versions of sphagnum). Orchid moss is also usually a sphagnum as well (there are many kinds growing in peat bogs all over the world all of which look slightly different but function exactly the same). I say usually because sometimes (seems to be area specific) it has other mosses mixed in. Usually nothing toxic like spanish moss, but not always pure sphagnum either. No idea how the addition of other mosses would effect snakelets, it most likely wouldn't so really just something to be aware of.

And now that I have rambled, about mosses of all things, I will go back to lurking. :D :sidestep:
 
Whoa!! I appreciate that you lurked enough to speak up about mosses! When my wife saw me rummaging through her gardening stuff and asked what I was searching for, I told her and she produced a bag of Spanish Moss, which I had NO IDEA was toxic!! (Actually, why would I??)

So to be clear, Spanish Moss is not a good medium for eggs? I was going to do what Nanci said, but with the Spanish Moss because it looks longer (not dirt-like in composition) and can be wrung out effectively.

I'll have to check that out some!

Thanx again for Un-Lurking!!!
 
Spanish Moss - Toxic or Not?

I have done a cursory search of Spanish Moss and did not discover anything that indicated it as toxic; only that Spanish Cedar may have sawdust that may be irritable, but that's irrelevant to this issue.

I'll keep looking. :shrugs:
 
I actually have no idea if Spanish moss will harm snakelets. I do know it will kill carnivorous plants fairly quickly.
 
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