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Feeding the Unwilling

My themousefactory.com order arrived Wednesday morning, and all non-feeders were offered small pinks Wednesday evening. It had been nine days since they had last been fed, involuntarily. Not a one showed the least bit of interest in the pinks, so, after an hour, I began feedings. On top of the hypo hatchlings, I also have nine other non-feeders, so this was a loooong evening.

One of the two remaining hypo females developed a couple of kinks midway down her spine. I culled her, as difficult as it was to do. The kinks were somewhat minor, but I decided after I culled the first ones that I had to use as objective a criteria as possible. I drew the line at any major kinks forward of the vent, or two or more minor kinks on a hatchling that was also not eating. I'm willing to try to save a nonfeeder. I am willing to wait and see on a baby with minor kinks to see if it seems hampered in digestion or movement. I cannot put myself through the difficulty of force feeding a hatchling that may still have to be culled because of its kinks. The longer I have worked to save it, the more difficult it becomes to let it go, and the more grief I experience.

None of the hypos have been named. I knew some had kinks before they arrived, though not to what minor or major degree. Knowing that it was unlikely that all would survive, I only gave them labels. It's hard enough to kill "0.1 Hypo Non-Feeder #3", I don't need some cute little name bouncing around in my head while I do so.

Sorry if I sound a tad bitter and pessimistic this go around. It's one in the morning and I've had better days.
 
Your honesty about your feelings is as important to this thread as the 'how to' instructions on the feeding. It could help people in similar situations decide if they are srong enough for the roller coaster of emotions. If I could I'd hug you x
 
as was said above... what you said is a very important part of this thread. ppl cant think that force feeding is easy and that everything turns out like in a fairy tale. They need to also know the hard part that goes with it too. The driving yourself crazy to think of things to try and try and retry... Also, they need to know that not every hatchling can be saved. None of the babies that mom and I are working on have kinks... and so far seem to not be loosing weight so much so... we havent had to make that choice yet.... yet... and I am sure that when/if that time comes I will be a crying mess before, during and after... a long time after. Dealing with living creatures is very hard on ppl who care deeply about them. I am so sorry Jaxom... you have my deepest heart felt sadness.
 
Thanks, J9 and Cat. It had been a rough day, but I am trying to share all facets of the experience, not just the feel good ones. With no force feedings on today's schedule, I was able to let yesterday go. I just checked on all my babies, and everyone kept their meals down and are chilling out. I gained three more non-feeders in today's FedEx delivery, but they are snakes that I wanted to work with, a couple because they would fit beautifully in my breeding plans in a few years, and one because he was dealt a bad hand and I want to give him a chance to "be a contender" :)

I also got the most beautiful ghost het diffuse male. A truly stunning snake and one with a healthy appetite :grin01: I wanted a ghost male to pair with last year's female ghost het diffuse, but wasn't actively looking for one this season. Out of the blue, I was offered Capt. Gregg, the exact male I needed. He was everything the breeder said he was and more.

My hatchlings are about evenly split between those eating on their own and those making me work. I'm going to try to split the non-eaters into two sets, with different eating schedules so I don't have to try to feed so many in one sitting. Half one day and half two days later will be less stressful.

Thanks again for the support. I needed some encouragement :)
 
Im sorry you had a bad day. :(
Congrads Jaxmo on the ghost. I have seen some ghosts that are really beautiful. I get lost on all the het stuff and diffused. If i can say ..yup thats anery or ....yup thats a amel im doing good.
We also went from 6 non eaters to 4 non eaters and now are down to 2 no eaters. Now if those two would decide they would like a lil "joy" in there lives it would be great. :grin01:
 
Ok i was hoping Cat could come in and fill in the part about what we did and they ate. She has been very busy tho lately so i will try.
We wanted to try different things to see if any of them would help to start the non feeders we had. We had been feeding them in there containers, chix broth dipped, tuna dipped, covered, over nite. We then tryed to feed in the deli cups.
The first thing decided was they would make a trip to my house. On 8-11 i brought them out here. Hoping they liked the "fresh" country air. lol
Second thing i done was to increase there temps immediately.
Third thing was i had them out once daily for "excerise" in a ten gallon that i had a water dish and a small tree in. I was hoping excerise might kick start things. I also watched for any that seemed overly fearful in the tank. Yes for safety sake i only had one at a time in the tank. Believe me they were cute to watch. lol
Forth thing was i washed the pinkies with joy and served them quite warm. Two of the non feeders ate in there deli containers with in 2 hrs on 8-14. The other 4 were left all nite covered and they still did'nt eat.
While watching them in the tanks i knew some showed more fear then the others. I decided to serve them as i did before but in there regular containers. I just removed there water and paper substrate. I got to 4 eaters doing that on the 8-18.
Now if i could figure out what would work with the last two it would be great...Ok i tryed to explain and hope i did'nt get any one to mixed up.. By the way im always open to suggestions. :)
 
heheh thanks :) yes, been abit busy lately :( I want to clearify one thing though.... the temps.. she took them from about 80F (my house) to about 82-83 (that right?) at her house. I am so glad and so very greatful that she was able to get 4!!! to eat :D The other 2 still not eating dont seem to be looseing any weight so at the moment we might try to wait them out... we did force feed them before but maybe if we are just patient their tummies might help them know what to do? :)

who knew smelling ummmm 'fresh' country air would be another form of scenting? LOL :crazy02:
 
Long evening....

Tonight was an "everybody eats" night. That's all of the non-feeders and the poor feeders, 15 in all. One, Beldar, ate all by his self, and I was so proud of him. Beldar is TINY, about 7 - 8 inches long. The last time I fed him the smallest pinkie I had, he still looked like a ball python. A non-feeder that I'd high hopes for (charcoal het diffused) developed a pretty severe reverse kink (spine kinks as a 'V' in toward the body rather than out in a point) and will likely have to be euthanized.

None of the hypos ate solo, but they are all maintaining weight well and seem very energetic. None have developed more or worse kinks than already noted. The remaining female is a sweet girl, and I'd like to keep her, if only I can get her to eat.

I'd had too hectic a day today to try any alternate methods to get them to eat. I'll have more time Sunday, so plan to try salmon dipped. If there'd been any tuna in the house, I'd have made sandwiches, but the canned salmon would last until hell froze over - yucky stuff. I hope the snakes like it more than I do.

I'm glad to hear Cat and her mom are making such good progress with their clutch. Congrats on already getting 2/3 of them eating on their own. That's a great success rate!
 
Way to go Beldar !! Is it possible the type of kinks it has will improve Jaxom? I sure hope it proves to not hinder it in any way. Poor wee lil mite.

I feed at nite as thats when the corns are out looking. Last nite was feeding nite again. I did not have as good of luck this time around and its proably my own fault. I tryed to feed unwashed pinkys to all six. Two ate the unwashed pinkys very well. One more ate after i washed the pinkys. So three ate 3 did not.

I hate salmon, that stuff reeks. Be interesting to see if it works for you Jaxom....Good luck
 
Msterry said:
Way to go Beldar !! Is it possible the type of kinks it has will improve Jaxom? I sure hope it proves to not hinder it in any way. Poor wee lil mite.
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I've heard of minor kinks disappearing as a snake matured, but this is pretty severe. It's as if the two vertebrae have become stuck sideways. I'm going to evaluate the kink on Sunday, the next hatchling feed day. If it is as severe as my first impression, she'll be euthanized then.
I tryed to feed unwashed pinkys to all six. Two ate the unwashed pinkys very well. One more ate after i washed the pinkys. So three ate 3 did not.
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Half of them ate on their own, and you think that's a BAD night? It's great that so many are eating, washed or unwashed. I think offering unwashed first makes sense. The snakes need to learn to associate the normal smell of the pinkie with food, rather than the scent of soap - unless you're willing to handwash mice for the rest of their lives. Keep up the good work, you're doing so well.
 
last night was feeding night for the babies... 2 now are eating readily on their own. eaten 3 meals on their own now :) 1 ate a washed in joy pinkie.. 1 refused but had eaten once on its own.. 1 ate for the first time on its own last night... I have leapard geckos and I was able to get to some shed skin before they ate it and mom put a little peice of that in the mouth of the pinkie and it ate!! so... 5 of 6 have now eaten pinks on their own :) 1 we are still having to force feed because she dropped from hatch weight of 6 grams to 4 grams and that is just too much so we will force feed her abit and then see if she will eat on her own :) I am so happy and Mom is doing a fantastic job!!! I am thinking with abit of time and Mom's hard work that they will all eventually be eating on their own :) I am so glad most are eating on their own.. its so stressful to them and us... poor babies. But if they eat on their own eventually, it will be worth it :)

How are your babies doing Jaxom?? success yet?? also, how is the baby with the bad kinks?? did you have to put it down??
 
Cat_Eyed_Lady said:
How are your babies doing Jaxom?? success yet?? also, how is the baby with the bad kinks?? did you have to put it down??
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No one was interested in eating Monday. It was miserably hot here. I'll try again Thursday.

I was going to euthanize Ziva, the kinked charcoal, on Sunday, and had prepared myself for the worst. I was already depressed because a hatchling that was born with a domed skull but had reverted to normal and was eating well suddenly died. She was one I really loved from the time I first saw her hatch photo, so her death was a hard hit to take. I was hoping against all odds that Ziva's kink wasn't as severe as I initially thought, and that she could be a pet if never a breeder. I was in no way prepared for what I found: she UNKINKED. :shrugs: You can't even feel where the kink used to be, and this was a serious kink. I'd heard that hatchlings sometimes outgrew minor kinks, but this was unreal. She'd shed, her colors look stunning, and she is kink free. Who am I too argue? Now, if she'll just start eating....
 
Phew glad you did the update Cat, and thanks...
Ya know i was wondering if any one has tryed chiropractors for snakes spinal problems..Ya i know im nuts. I ask tho as when i used to see my chiro guy he and i talked about animals. He had gone to the farms and helped many animals with there problems. Cowz, horses and ect. With the bigger ones it was a bit hard due to the amount of strength he had to have for it to work.. Can ya see a chiroprator if ya brought a snake in for an adjustment??.... :grin01: :sidestep: Well it was just a thought and i had to ask..
 
jaxom1957 said:
No one was interested in eating Monday. It was miserably hot here. I'll try again Thursday.

I was going to euthanize Ziva, the kinked charcoal, on Sunday, and had prepared myself for the worst. I was already depressed because a hatchling that was born with a domed skull but had reverted to normal and was eating well suddenly died. She was one I really loved from the time I first saw her hatch photo, so her death was a hard hit to take. I was hoping against all odds that Ziva's kink wasn't as severe as I initially thought, and that she could be a pet if never a breeder. I was in no way prepared for what I found: she UNKINKED. :shrugs: You can't even feel where the kink used to be, and this was a serious kink. I'd heard that hatchlings sometimes outgrew minor kinks, but this was unreal. She'd shed, her colors look stunning, and she is kink free. Who am I too argue? Now, if she'll just start eating....
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wow.... well, how about that?? thats really cool... hehe I wouldnt argue with that either. I am sorry to hear about your other baby though. Its so hard to have little ones that pass :( I wish Ziva the best and am happy to hear about that :) How many are you still force feeding?? I know my heart and hands are happy with less to do lol :)
 
Msterry said:
Phew glad you did the update Cat, and thanks...
Ya know i was wondering if any one has tryed chiropractors for snakes spinal problems..Ya i know im nuts. I ask tho as when i used to see my chiro guy he and i talked about animals. He had gone to the farms and helped many animals with there problems. Cowz, horses and ect. With the bigger ones it was a bit hard due to the amount of strength he had to have for it to work.. Can ya see a chiroprator if ya brought a snake in for an adjustment??.... :grin01: :sidestep: Well it was just a thought and i had to ask..
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LOL ya, thought it was time I got off my 'lazy' butt and did it :grin01: especially since you did the last one hehe :) I dont know if I should be doing the updates though because you get ALL the credit :) You are doing a Fantastic job Mom and I am so happy that you are so willing to help me out and are doing such a wonderful job :) I owe you big time!! hmmm can I pay in mice?? :crazy02:
 
jaxom1957 said:
No one was interested in eating Monday. It was miserably hot here. I'll try again Thursday.

I was going to euthanize Ziva, the kinked charcoal, on Sunday, and had prepared myself for the worst. I was already depressed because a hatchling that was born with a domed skull but had reverted to normal and was eating well suddenly died. She was one I really loved from the time I first saw her hatch photo, so her death was a hard hit to take. I was hoping against all odds that Ziva's kink wasn't as severe as I initially thought, and that she could be a pet if never a breeder. I was in no way prepared for what I found: she UNKINKED. :shrugs: You can't even feel where the kink used to be, and this was a serious kink. I'd heard that hatchlings sometimes outgrew minor kinks, but this was unreal. She'd shed, her colors look stunning, and she is kink free. Who am I too argue? Now, if she'll just start eating....
Click to expand...

Oh Jaxom i am so happy to hear that great newz about Ziva. I sure been praying hard for that lil one. Hopefully soon Ziva will be ating like a champ.

I am so sorry to hear about your lose tho. Thru all my years it seems the animals we favor and love just a wee bit more are the ones that have the worest time or simple for some reason unknown can't make it.

I have never seen a domed baby. Do you know what causes that?
 
Cat_Eyed_Lady said:
LOL ya, thought it was time I got off my 'lazy' butt and did it :grin01: especially since you did the last one hehe :) I dont know if I should be doing the updates though because you get ALL the credit :) You are doing a Fantastic job Mom and I am so happy that you are so willing to help me out and are doing such a wonderful job :) I owe you big time!! hmmm can I pay in mice?? :crazy02:
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Yup Cat i heard lots of...yesssssss's. lol Any thing i have done you could have done and proably better.Thank tho...
 
Saturday evening feeding was long and completely lacking in progress. I can't really fault the hatchlings for not wanting to eat. It has been oppressively hot here for the better part of two weeks, and even my best eaters look at me as though I'm out of my mind, offering them a hot mouse. I'd have had more success offering them unthawed.

That being said, it had been too long since the nonfeeders had eaten anything, so everyone got food, voluntarily or not. Because of the volume of babies, I've changed my method slightly. I now cut up the pinkie without even trying to feed it whole. The hatchlings are small, and trying to get even the smallest pinkie into them against their will is simply too stressful for both the snake and for me. I cut up everyone's dinner, four pieces per mouse - head, front shoulders, mid-section, rear legs. The feedings went easier, the snakes were less stressed and less "shocky" afterward. The quarter pieces were easy to swallow, so once their mouths were closed, they seemed to get the idea that down was better that out. I was certainly less drained this way.

I did something I'd promised myself I wouldn't: I named the hypos. I wanted them to have classic Hollywood names that befitted their subtle, nuanced beauty. The males are Moe, Larry, Curly and Shemp. :grin01: The remaining female is Mae West. :rolleyes: Unfortunately, Mae has some minor kinks and will definitely be "pet" only, and available for adoption once she starts eating on her own. Moe, Larry and Shemp will also be available once eating, but I think Curly will stay here. He reacts to me in a way the others don't, like he knows I'm doing this for his own good. He doesn't fight me, he just curls his tail around my little finger and settles in for the feeding. He was "Curly" before the others had names, and you can all blame him for the theme. I had nothing to say in the matter, obviously.
 
I think that is right its in sides will fall out but i think it sounds like im gonna puke i dont like people going on about guts :-offtopic
 
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