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HELP!! What in the world is this?

JustineNYC said:
Where the hell would she have gotten crypto though? Ive gotten all my snakes off here, so unless someone on here was selling snakes with Crypto I dont know how she wouldve gotten it.
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I don't believe that the nature of crypto in captive corn populations and the extent to which it is present is well understood. Most of us don't like to think about it. But I believe that it's more widespread than we'd like to think. I think that it is present in many collections. It may remain dormant for a snake's entire life, if the snake's health isn't compromised in some other way. It wouldn't shock me if a decent number of brumation deaths are due to crypto getting a foothold, especially when brumation conditions are not ideal. The testing for it is far from conclusive-- negatives can never truly be trusted (imo). I think that the seemingly prevailing attitude that three negatives can give you reasonable assurance that your snake is clean is delusional. The testing is expensive, and considering that the results can be meaningless, I can't blame keepers and breeders for not testing more thoroughly. To me, it's an unfortunate and misunderstood aspect of keeping cornsnakes...

They didnt test for Crypto and she didnt go to the bathroom after we left the vet. The air in the intestines to me didnt look like alot, but Im not a vet, and it wasnt enough to make a buldge because when I brought her in and told them about the lumps, they lookd at me like I was nuts.
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As far as I know, the thickening of the stomach wall that occurs when crypto becomes symptomatic is not a come-and-go thing. Once it happens, it doesn't reverse. I'm no vet, but as I understand it, by the time that happens, it's probably too late to save the snake.

Ive had her a year, so she was in my room with all my other snakes, standard quarantine is 60 days right? So basically if its crypto I can kiss all 5 of my guys goodbye?
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I don't think there's a "standard" quarantine period. Sixty days sounds kind of short, but with crypto, no length of time is long enough. How long do you quarantine an animal that can carry a parasite indefinitely without showing a single symptom? Six months? Six years? By all means, keep that snake away from the others and practive maximum hygeine until you get a handle on her issues. But if your other snakes are doing well, I wouldn't start getting super-spooked about them possibly having crypto...
 
Just one question....

In the first post you say you "warmed" the mouse in chicken broth. What is that procedure?
 
I always defrost in a baggie in hot water first but I dont remember if i heated the broth in the microwave and then put the mouse in or if I put the mouse in the broth and put that in the micro for a few seconds. By now its almost a month I dont remember...and Ive done it both ways for another poor eater I have. She didnt eat it for an hour anyway so making it hot was redundant.
 
IF she has crypto, I doubt you have to kiss your other five goodbye. They'd have to have been in contact, directly or indirectly (via you or a contaminated hide, waterbowl, whatever, that was shared) with her poo or regurge. So as long as you practice clean handling procedures- washing your hands after touching poo, etc., I wouldn't worry about it overly, IF she even has crypto.
 
Does that mean IF she has it she wouldve had to come into contact with the poo or regurged mouse of another snake that had it.......or is it more likely IF she has crypto she was born with it and it didnt surface til now.
 
There is a really, really good book, Understanding Reptile Parasites, by Roger Klingenberg. I'm going to paraphrase from that. Cryptosporidium serpentis has two types of oocysts. 80% are thick-walled and are passed out of the snake to go on to infect others and to reinfect the host if there is chronic exposure. 20% are thin-walled and stay in the snake to maintain the lifecycle within the host. The life cycle has yet to be clearly defined, but is probably a direct cycle. The severity of the infection is a result of reinfection with thin-walled oocysts, repeated exposure to thick-walled oocysts, and the immune status of the host. Transmission is oral-fecal, and appears to be most commonly transmitted through contaminated water. These infections result from the ingestion of sporolated oocysts shed by infected reptiles or by predation of infected snakes and lizards.
 
feeder mice

I am pretty sure feeder mice can carry crypto and pass it on to the snake,even if its a frozen thawed mouse it could still have it.I am not sure but I think it takes really cold temps to kill it. I hope she dont have it,I wouldnt keep tryin to feed it I would wait at least 14 days,hope it goes good for you and your snake!
 
I also read in that book that repeated attempts to infect feeder mice with crypto were unsuccessful, although it is popularly believed that that is a mode of transmission...
 
Hi!
As far as I know, there are different species of cryptos in rodents, snakes and lizards.
The species cryptosporidium serpentis and c. iguana are infective and potentially deadly for many snakes and lizards (both forms).
The species cryptosporidium muris is carried by feeder mice and other related rodents. It can be found in snake fecals or regurges, but it is not infective nor harmful to the snakes.

When you check fecal samples - e.g. as many german keepers do at "exomed"institute in Berlin - the IFT (immunofluorescence test) can distinguish the mice-cryptos from the others and they tell you if the crypto-species is harmful.
Other tests who cannot distinguish show cryptos anyway, so it's not easy to be *kind of* sure...
A IFT is expensive (around 56 $) and not done everywhere, but I thought I could add the info :)
 
I haven't seen this suggestion, but have you thought about either emailing or printing and sending the pictures that you've been showing us here to the Vet clinic, so they can see what you were seeing? That might help them better visualize what you've been talking about.
 
I didnt want to post last night and jinx her, but she did finally eat for me. I gave her a pinky head, which is small for her because she eats large fuzzies normally, swirled it in warm chicken broth and put her in a small deli cup with it. Took her about 2 hours to down it and then she fell asleep in the cup.

Seems if she isnt in something small where she can barely move to get away from the mouse she wont eat.

So far so good, I just checked again and no regurge, but she is making me nervous because she is :CLIMBING: yikes! The mysterious lumps never returned....


Her last meal was around May 22rd...And the following week after eating she regurged June 1.....I checked her weight yesterday and she hasnt lost any surprisingly. She is 57 grams which is what she was last month.


She just turned a year old so she is small for her age, but her eating habits, normally, really stink. Thats why its hard for me beside the one regurge to tell if shes ill. Before during and after shed, she just wont eat.

Now Im just waiting on a successful feed.
 
Nanci said:
IF she has crypto, I doubt you have to kiss your other five goodbye. They'd have to have been in contact, directly or indirectly (via you or a contaminated hide, waterbowl, whatever, that was shared) with her poo or regurge. So as long as you practice clean handling procedures- washing your hands after touching poo, etc., I wouldn't worry about it overly, IF she even has crypto.
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This is not accurate from what I understand. Those pesky little gnats, can also transmit the crypto from one tank to another, by landing in the fresh fecal, and then into the water of an uninfected snake. Or so it is believed. There is a thread on this in one of the kingsnake forums (I believe it was the Hognose forum).
Crypto is EXTREMELY infectious, HARD to KILL, and LONG LIVED. It was told to me by a vet that studied Crypo, that Crypto can live up to 1 year without water, and without host. This means that ANY reptile, handled could be a source of infection, even if it is not in your actual collection. Pet stores, reptile shows, friends animals, all become a potential source of infection. And even Birds seem to transmit or carry Crypto Serpentes, and pass it in there fecal, though they do not seem to be harmed by it. (How many members have a bird, or feed birds?) This makes the actual cause VERY hard to pinpoint. Good luck to all of us.
 
Still no regurge as of today, and no lumps either....So I guess Im operating under the assumption that the air passed after they gave her the laxative....

My question is, providing she poops tomorrow or the day after, how should I approach her meals size wise...She got down a pinkie head which obviously didnt leave a buldge....Should I do a fuzzie head next week? Bump her up slowly?

I dont really have experience with regurges.
 
What was her usual meal size before the regurge? Will you be feeding her at 5 days or seven days? I might do a whole pink, cut in half crosswise, feed both halves, dunked in Nutribac. I'd continue Nutribac for a couple months, at least.
 
Nanci said:
What was her usual meal size before the regurge? Will you be feeding her at 5 days or seven days? I might do a whole pink, cut in half crosswise, feed both halves, dunked in Nutribac. I'd continue Nutribac for a couple months, at least.
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Just my .02...NutriBac is amazing stuff. It has helped a few of my snakes, and a couple of other reptile-friends...:) I order it from Kathy Love http://www.cornutopia.com/ I sprinkle some in a container & roll the moistened/thawed mouse in the powder and/or just sprinkle it *liberally* on the mouse; it is sticky, though, when wet. I was paranoid about quantity, at first, when using it because I didn't want to OD the poor snake, but thus far no problems...and I've healthy snakes to show for it! :) Did I mention that I love this stuff?

Good luck with your poor baby!
 
Nanci said:
What was her usual meal size before the regurge? Will you be feeding her at 5 days or seven days? I might do a whole pink, cut in half crosswise, feed both halves, dunked in Nutribac. I'd continue Nutribac for a couple months, at least.
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She was eating large fuzzies from TMF every 7 days, providing she wasnt in blue or about to shed, she wouldnt have taken a meal every 5 anyway. Her last few meals were on the larger side cause I was in the process of bumping her up.......Maybe Ill do the whole pinkie cut in half, that sounds good.

I have Nutribac, and offered it 4 times with the broth scenting and you know she wouldnt take it....On Saturday I said, let me try without it and wouldnt you know she ate it. Ive been putting it in her water though.
 
Cut the pink in half after it's thawed. Not too messy. Then I just dunk the cut end in Nutribac. If you're putting it in her water, you know you have to change the water very frequently, right, because there is bacteria growing in it. I'd do several meals of cut in half pinks, (with Jasper, I even cut his in thirds for two meals!) increasing the pink size slightly each time, then maybe go to one and a half pinks, then double pinks still cut in half, and since fuzzies are really gross to cut in half, then just do really deep slitting. I absolutely wouldn't rush, because you really, really, really don't want a second regurge.
 
No youre right I certainly dont....Ill have to go buy some pinkies, I dont usually keep them because I dont have any hatchlings.

The pinkies are enough to nourish her even though shes a yearling? As long as she keeps them down? Cause as soon as she ate she rested and then started climbing.

Anyway, yea Ive been changing her water everday, I read on the back of the nutribac you could put it in water but it had to be changed daily.

I also quit handling her. I was handling her alot after those lumps appeared, poking and pressing her belly wondering what the heck was wrong with her and stuff and then :awcrap: she regurges.
 
I hope Tula is ok and does not regurge a second time. Will be keeping our fingers crossed.

I was reading your thread with great interest as I lost a tiny baby to some sort of bloat-like condition (that is what it appeared to be anyhow). I had purchased a hatchling size snake (for my daughter's bday-our very first snake too:awcrap:) that supposedly had eaten but then I found out they were not able to feed it. I was able to get a response by tease feeding the poor thing but she never did take/swallow the pinky. A few days later, she died (we only had her for about 5 or 6 days).

When we examined her, the body had a buldge in the middle (that I had never noticed before) that looked like gas or liquid and you could see greenish coloration below the skin in the abdominal cavity. I could almost swear it was a rupture or rot of some sort inside her abdomen. We never got a necropsy done (I was just out good money for that snake and now was looking to buy another).

Lucky for Tula the bulge is gone and she felt good enough to eat so that is a very good sign.

She is a very pretty snake btw.

Colette
 
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