-
Hello!
Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.
Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....
Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.
Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.
Het. Traits
- Thread starter marek986
- Start date
Darin Chappell
Very Senior Hillbilly
That's true. Okeetee is a result of line breeding (either from locality-based natural interaction, as in the case of locality okeetees, or from breeder determinant selection linebreeding, as in the case of the "look-eetees"). Either way, it is a question of breeding over a long period of time and multiple generations, which brings about the okeetees. It is not the result of a simple recessive gene, and therefore, an animal cannot hetero OR homozyogus for the trait.
TripleMoonsExotic
I <3 Stripes!
marek, it was me that told you that...
told you so!
(I'm just pickin' and letting you know the facts - you can't sell animals under false information - BUT you can say that the hatchling is from a okeetee x normal breeding (or whatever the breeding really was) )
told you so!
(I'm just pickin' and letting you know the facts - you can't sell animals under false information - BUT you can say that the hatchling is from a okeetee x normal breeding (or whatever the breeding really was) )
Kat
I'm talkin' to YOU.
Whoever answered your question on the other board was 100% correct. As Darin has stated, there's more to the okeetee look than a single recessive gene. It takes years of breeding for appearance to achieve the okeetee look. It's not something you can recover from a normal that had an okeetee parent just by breeding it to another normal that had an okeetee parent.
That having been said, it's possible for offspring of an okeetee X non-okeetee cross to look similar to okeetees, and you may even get some that would qualify as okeetees themselves. It varies not only with the clutch, but with the individual themselves. I would hazard to guess that your best chance of getting okeetee hatchlings by breeding to a non-okeetee would be to take one of Kathy Love's okeetees and breed it to a normal that is atleast somewhat close to having an okeetee appearance.
As anecdotal evidence, I bred a locality okeetee to a blizzard, and while the hatchlings seem to have inherited the large saddles and thick black borders, the colors aren't there, especially on the sides. Also, the saddle colors aren't solid enough to be okeetee, IMO... there are patches of fading. The okeetee parent had some influence on their appearance, but it wasn't total, and I won't be getting 1/4 okeetees if I breed two of those hatchlings together when they're older.
-Kat
That having been said, it's possible for offspring of an okeetee X non-okeetee cross to look similar to okeetees, and you may even get some that would qualify as okeetees themselves. It varies not only with the clutch, but with the individual themselves. I would hazard to guess that your best chance of getting okeetee hatchlings by breeding to a non-okeetee would be to take one of Kathy Love's okeetees and breed it to a normal that is atleast somewhat close to having an okeetee appearance.
As anecdotal evidence, I bred a locality okeetee to a blizzard, and while the hatchlings seem to have inherited the large saddles and thick black borders, the colors aren't there, especially on the sides. Also, the saddle colors aren't solid enough to be okeetee, IMO... there are patches of fading. The okeetee parent had some influence on their appearance, but it wasn't total, and I won't be getting 1/4 okeetees if I breed two of those hatchlings together when they're older.
-Kat
First of all, I stand corrected. Second off: blackkat, I humbly beg your forgiveness for the snotty remarks on the other board. But the question still remains in my mind: cannot a normal x okeetee breed a normal that would be het for okeetee?
Finally, I was not trying to sell them as something that they weren't.....I was simply stating the facts as they were posed to me by the guy I bought them from. Honest mistake?!?!?!
Marek986
0:0:1 Ball python-Niko
1:0 Normal Corn-Damian
1:0 Everglade Rat-as yet untitled
Finally, I was not trying to sell them as something that they weren't.....I was simply stating the facts as they were posed to me by the guy I bought them from. Honest mistake?!?!?!
Marek986
0:0:1 Ball python-Niko
1:0 Normal Corn-Damian
1:0 Everglade Rat-as yet untitled
Khaman
Headed for rehab.
Well Okeetee is not a trait it is the appearance of an accepted "look". A trait can be passed down to offspring 100% true, if I breed a Anery to Normal (hidden hets aside) I get a normal positively het for Anery. Whereas if I breed an Okeetee to a Normal I may get Okeetee hatchlings and I may not there is no guarantee much like Aztec markings it is the luck of the draw.
In breeders terms there is a standard for the term heterogeneous that if you breed two heterogeneous animals together you will get a percentage of the hidden trait. You cannot accurately say that they will receive any Okeetees in that cross.
I know you said that you were not trying to mislead anyone but I know if I saw someone selling het for Okeetee animals I would avoid them because they are either (a) trying to mislead me or (b) don't know what they are talking about.
This whole argument is Null and Void when speaking of Locale Okeetees but that is an entirely new thread.
In breeders terms there is a standard for the term heterogeneous that if you breed two heterogeneous animals together you will get a percentage of the hidden trait. You cannot accurately say that they will receive any Okeetees in that cross.
I know you said that you were not trying to mislead anyone but I know if I saw someone selling het for Okeetee animals I would avoid them because they are either (a) trying to mislead me or (b) don't know what they are talking about.
This whole argument is Null and Void when speaking of Locale Okeetees but that is an entirely new thread.
TripleMoonsExotic
I <3 Stripes!
As I said in the other thread....
Okeetees are line bred NORMALS (for a specific coloring)...So an okeetee is a NORMAL (and we're not speaking of locale okeetees either)...
I have no clue if you're being sarcastic or not, but I don't see how you're correct...
Okeetees are line bred NORMALS (for a specific coloring)...So an okeetee is a NORMAL (and we're not speaking of locale okeetees either)...
I have no clue if you're being sarcastic or not, but I don't see how you're correct...
Serpwidgets
New member
If you breed a corn to a king and get "jungle corn" offspring, are they "het for kingsnake?" Could you breed one of those offspring back to a kingsnake and half the clutch will be kingsnakes just like the kingsnake parent?marek986 said:
You have two buckets. One has a pair of red marbles, the other has a pair of blue marbles. Pick one marble from each bucket. What do you have? (A red marble and a blue marble.) It is obvious that even if someone else were to pick one marble from each bucket, and you didn't watch, that you'd still know the results would be one red one blue. This is how we can know something is "het" for a given trait.
Het is short for heterozygous. This is a genetics term which means that paired genes at a specific locus are different from each other. Something can be het for AneryA or Amel or several other traits because they are caused by a KNOWN SINGLE gene which are inherited in KNOWN patterns.
Now, take two buckets, and put a red marble in each bucket, and a blue marble in each bucket. Now randomly pick out one marble from each bucket. What are your odds of picking up two red marbles? 1 in 4.
The usage of the word het says, "when this individual is paired with a het or homo for the same trait, it is capable of producing offspring expressing that trait, the proportions of which can be predicted statistically."
The reason these odds are known is because the genes causing the traits have proven out, and their mode of inheritance is known. That's what allows breeders to understand what types of offspring they can get from given parents. The word "het" is a way for us to communicate that to each other. It says "one of the two marbles in that bucket is definitely red." The buyer is paying for a het specifically to get that red marble.
Trait breeding involves knowing exactly which marbles are involved, and "doing the math" to figure out how to get offspring expressing the desired trait(s) whereas "line breeding" or "selective breeding" means you really have no clue what genetics control the look you're trying to produce. Instead, you just continue to breed those who are "closest to the ideal" to each other in order to continuously improve the look.
The problem with this is that when you outcross, all of that work goes out the window... you have no idea how many genes have been gathered together to produce the given look, what any of those genes even do, or how possible it might be to recover the original look. If any of the involved genes are not recessive, then those genes might not even be present in many of the offspring...
The "Okeetee" appearance, regardless of whether or not you are talking about locales, is not the result of a single gene, nor is it necessarily the result of all--or even any--of the same genes for any two given "Okeetee" corns. You can breed two "okeetee-looking" corns whose appearances are the results of entirely different genetics and get a huge range of variety, and no real predictability.
In order for it to be known het, you'd have to, first of all, know one of the parents is homozygous for something. What exactly is the given Okeetee corn homozygous or heterozygous for in order to take on that appearance? Who knows.
Put an unknown number of marbles of unknown colors into two buckets, and pick out an unknown number of marbles from each bucket. What are your results?
Darin Chappell
Very Senior Hillbilly
"But the question still remains in my mind: cannot a normal x okeetee breed a normal that would be het for okeetee?"
Short answer: No, they cannot.
It is impossible for any snake to be "het" for okeetee, or miami. Those are linebred phases, not the results of combining simple, recessive genes.
It is also impossible for an animal to be "het" for rootbeer, creamsicle, creamsoda, or any of the other of the various intergrade names out there. Such animals are simply guttata x emoryi intergrades that are "het" for amel, hypo, or whatever.
To be purely accurate, it is also not correct to say that an animal is "het" for candycane or silver queen ghost either. Such individuals would be het for amel and anery A respectively, but because of the line breeding behind them, they are most likely to produce candycanes and silver queens. So, we bend the rules a bit for those instances sometimes. It's still not completely accurate, though.
Short answer: No, they cannot.
It is impossible for any snake to be "het" for okeetee, or miami. Those are linebred phases, not the results of combining simple, recessive genes.
It is also impossible for an animal to be "het" for rootbeer, creamsicle, creamsoda, or any of the other of the various intergrade names out there. Such animals are simply guttata x emoryi intergrades that are "het" for amel, hypo, or whatever.
To be purely accurate, it is also not correct to say that an animal is "het" for candycane or silver queen ghost either. Such individuals would be het for amel and anery A respectively, but because of the line breeding behind them, they are most likely to produce candycanes and silver queens. So, we bend the rules a bit for those instances sometimes. It's still not completely accurate, though.
Shaky
Ought to know better
clearly stated...??
Okay, I've read through all these posts, and while stating the reasons very well, no one spelled it right out and made it easy to understand.
I'll try now:
Most of the morphs we deal with are associated with a single variable for each.
For instance, amelanism is located on the one gene that controls melanin production. Snow is a combination of 2 genes: the one for amel and the one for anery.
A few of the "morphs" are NOT associated with single genes, but MANY, and we aren't sure which ones.
An Okeetee, even though it's a normal, has been bred for thru generations looking for wider saddle borders, vibrant colors, no fading of colors on saddles, etc, etc.
When bred to a non-Okeetee, the babies become hets for MANY genes, not one. Some of those genes are recessive, and some are dominant, and there is no telling what's where.
Therefore, if you try to breed those babies back together to produce those same gene combos, its like starting all over. Sure, there may be some that look Okeetee, but you won't be able to say for sure, 'CAUSE YOU CAN"T TELL what's actually going on there.
SO, if you take 2 from that F2 litter that look really Okeetee and cross them, you'll still wind up with babies that don't look Okeetee.
Now, you're selecting the good ones and crossing them back in again-that's line-breeding-what was originally done to get the Okeetee look.
See how simple?
Okay, I've read through all these posts, and while stating the reasons very well, no one spelled it right out and made it easy to understand.
I'll try now:
Most of the morphs we deal with are associated with a single variable for each.
For instance, amelanism is located on the one gene that controls melanin production. Snow is a combination of 2 genes: the one for amel and the one for anery.
A few of the "morphs" are NOT associated with single genes, but MANY, and we aren't sure which ones.
An Okeetee, even though it's a normal, has been bred for thru generations looking for wider saddle borders, vibrant colors, no fading of colors on saddles, etc, etc.
When bred to a non-Okeetee, the babies become hets for MANY genes, not one. Some of those genes are recessive, and some are dominant, and there is no telling what's where.
Therefore, if you try to breed those babies back together to produce those same gene combos, its like starting all over. Sure, there may be some that look Okeetee, but you won't be able to say for sure, 'CAUSE YOU CAN"T TELL what's actually going on there.
SO, if you take 2 from that F2 litter that look really Okeetee and cross them, you'll still wind up with babies that don't look Okeetee.
Now, you're selecting the good ones and crossing them back in again-that's line-breeding-what was originally done to get the Okeetee look.
See how simple?
Shaky
Ought to know better
...and another thing...(why Okeetees can't be homozygous Okeetee)
Many genes control more than one trait. For example, more than one gene may enhance melanin production, while only one inhibits it. Or, it may take 3 genes in tandem to create wider borders. Or, a single gene may usually control red, but in the presence of a similar gene, it suppresses white.We just don't know how it all works yet.
Now, take 2 beautiful Okeetees from different lines. Mate them and
you get babies that don't look like their parents at all!
Why?!?
Because they were line bred differently, and acheived similar routes thru different gene pathways.
Ah, it's good to be an Okeetee, cream of the crop.
Best of the bunch, pick of the litter.
Anyway, enough of my pretending to be on top of the game. I finally understand this stuff by explaining it, and now I see why a nice Okeetee is in high demand.
Many genes control more than one trait. For example, more than one gene may enhance melanin production, while only one inhibits it. Or, it may take 3 genes in tandem to create wider borders. Or, a single gene may usually control red, but in the presence of a similar gene, it suppresses white.We just don't know how it all works yet.
Now, take 2 beautiful Okeetees from different lines. Mate them and
you get babies that don't look like their parents at all!
Why?!?
Because they were line bred differently, and acheived similar routes thru different gene pathways.
Ah, it's good to be an Okeetee, cream of the crop.
Best of the bunch, pick of the litter.
Anyway, enough of my pretending to be on top of the game. I finally understand this stuff by explaining it, and now I see why a nice Okeetee is in high demand.