I just put 3 pinkies in the freezer *cries*

[JustineNYC]

Ok you are correct about your quote Justine, you also said you'ld rather be a hypocrite than a murderer. Which could perhaps be lumped into one phrase "people who raise animlas are murderers and shouldn't sleep at night". I'm just taking a step back and looking at this whole thing. I don't feel any of us is better than the other for our views on raising our own food. I don't want you to feel bad because you can't kill an animal. Before I raised my own mice I had to get a feeder rat hopper, I couldn't kill it asked the guy at the pet shop so do it, not because I couldn't kill it, I hate rats, can't stand to touch them, they scare me to near death. The final straw to me raising my own feeders.
After this thread started I really did sit back and start watching my mice. They are cute and funny and very good parents. I won't buy anymore feeders because of all the reasons I stated before, so I am left with the problem kill mice or get rid of snakes, I like both. For me and just for me it would be hypocritical to ask someone else to kill mice for me, again this is only me. You have to do what you have to for your snakes. We both sleep at night and so does the butcher.

I was being defensive about my side being called hypocrites, not attacking the opposite side of the argument like what was being done to us... if that makes any sense. In fact, in an effort for my statement to not be taken wrong, I specified I didnt take anything away from a person able to kill their own feed, it just was "wasnt for me"

Why was I defensive? There is alot of belittling going on in this thread....

do you people cry when you squash an ant or swat a mosquito?

I mean, is that really necessary? Its completely juvenile and ridiculous.

 

[azzagoth]

Sorry starsevol, I got you confused with justinenyc. It's not you, but her that thinks she is so much better for buying frozen. Sorry

As to justinenyc, I started this thread because I felt bad for putting those pinkies in the freezer. I really don't understand what good it does for you to tell me I shouldn't be able to sleep at night because I'm providing healthy food for my snakes. Mice I can almost certainly guarantee have a better life prior to their death, then the mice you are feeding to your snakes.

 

[JustineNYC]

Sorry starsevol, I got you confused with justinenyc. It's not you, but her that thinks she is so much better for buying frozen. Sorry

As to justinenyc, I started this thread because I felt bad for putting those pinkies in the freezer. I really don't understand what good it does for you to tell me I shouldn't be able to sleep at night because I'm providing healthy food for my snakes. Mice I can almost certainly guarantee have a better life prior to their death, then the mice you are feeding to your snakes.

Did you even see where I wrote "anyone else who chooses to take that road, raise their own feed.....thats fine."

What do I have to do tattoo it on my chest?


It seems you are VERY CONFUSED and DEFENSIVE.

On post # 35 you wrote

I just think its hypocritical wanting other people to kill for you, when you cant do it yourself, and thereby thinking its better. Just what I feel.

And then on post #42 you wrote the complete opposite

It's not hypocritical going to the market to buy meat, it's easiest and cheapest.

Uh ok? :shrugs:

Why did you coax a fight and change your POV like that? Im in NYC, perhaps its "easier and cheapest" for me to buy frozen feed, am I still a hypocrite then? And if you started this thread because you felt guilty, why did you start the name calling? You defended yourself when their was no need to defend.

I typed my responses to you, the least you couldve did was read them....but apparently your not reading your own either.

 

[azzagoth]

No, I'm not confused. One more thing for you, I am not the one who started the "fight", like you call it. It seems to me like you're the confused one.

Here you are fine with people who raise mice for food

anyone else who chooses to take that road, raise their own feed.....thats fine.

Here however

IMO, Id rather be a hypocrite then a murderer.....

Seeing as you never denied thinking people who kill feed shouldn't sleep, I'll still take this as you implying. You denied implying things, not thinking them. Ok, maybe a bit far out, but I'll still throw it in here.

For future reference, i dont imply things, if I feel people who kill their own feed shouldnt be able to sleep at night, Ill say it.

As for the comment about ME being defensive:

And just because someone chooses to kill their own food does not make them better then I.

Uh OK ? :shrugs:

I did read your responses, and you obviously think that by buying frozen, you have no guilt in the death of the mouse you are feeding. You can however play the guilt trip on mouse breeders. (look at your quotes above) THIS is what I called hypocritical.

As for the whole supermarket/meat thing, IF it was easier for me to kill the meat I am eating, I probably would have done it. But as it is, I choose to buy mine at the market. This however to me means that I have just as much "guilt" in the animals death as the butcher. I did say "I just think its hypocritical wanting other people to kill for you, when you cant do it yourself, and thereby thinking its better." Read the last four words again. The difference with your situation, is that you think you're raised above the people doing the killing.

So when you tell me to start reading my own and your posts, that I am DEFENSIVE and CONFUSED, I'll say that right back to you.

 

[JustineNYC]

No, I'm not confused. One more thing for you, I am not the one who started the "fight", like you call it. It seems to me like you're the confused one.

Here you are fine with people who raise mice for food



Here however



Seeing as you never denied thinking people who kill feed shouldn't sleep, I'll still take this as you implying. You denied implying things, not thinking them. Ok, maybe a bit far out, but I'll still throw it in here.



As for the comment about ME being defensive:




Uh OK ? :shrugs:

I did read your responses, and you obviously think that by buying frozen, you have no guilt in the death of the mouse you are feeding. You can however play the guilt trip on mouse breeders. (look at your quotes above) THIS is what I called hypocritical.

As for the whole supermarket/meat thing, IF it was easier for me to kill the meat I am eating, I probably would have done it. But as it is, I choose to buy mine at the market. This however to me means that I have just as much "guilt" in the animals death as the butcher. I did say "I just think its hypocritical wanting other people to kill for you, when you cant do it yourself, and thereby thinking its better." Read the last four words again. The difference with your situation, is that you think you're raised above the people doing the killing.

So when you tell me to start reading my own and your posts, that I am DEFENSIVE and CONFUSED, I'll say that right back to you.

Are you aware IMO means "In my opinion"?

When I said "IMO, Id rather be a hypocrite then a murderer....." I mean ME MYSELF, ITS MY PREFERENCE AND HAS ZERO TO DO WITH YOU.

You called people who didnt kill their own feed hypocrital, so I said Id rather be hypocrital then a murderer.


Would it have been better if I said 'Id rather be hypocrital then someone who sticks live pinks in the freezer'? Is that better? Im sorry I dont know how to sugar coat it. How about "id rather be a hypocrite then someone who kills their own feed" Is that better? Is "kill" better then murder? I dont know what to tell you ......Dont take it out on me because you are how you put it "feeling guilty"

I specified I didnt have a problem with other people killing their own feed.....you DIDNT SPECIFY ANYTHING BUT PEOPLE WHO WERENT DOING AS YOU, BEING HYPOCRITICAL.

I am not confused, I know what I said and meant....



I NEVER EVER said that I was better then you because I used frozen feed. NEVER.

In fact, you were the first person who felt it necessary to name call.

YOU ......called people who allowed others to kill their feed for them “Hypocritical” so in reality, your the one who thinks she is better because she does NOT buy frozen feed. Its not me that thinks she is better then the other side, its you.


I am done with this topic, and for future reference, when you want people to sympathize with you.....dont put them down.

 

[Roy Munson]

I hope this discussion continues in a civil fashion.

There is a wide spectrum of opinions on man's treatment and use of animals. You have everything from those who spraypaint fur coats to trophy hunters. Part of that spectrum, and not a small part, consists of people who for different reasons don't think that snakes should be kept in private owners' hands at all. We can probably all laugh at the ones who feel that way because they consider all snakes to be a physical threat. But what about the ones who feel that keeping domesticated animals is ok, but that keeping wild animals in artificial conditions is wrong? Are these people wrong? I sure as heck don't know. But I'm still going to keep snakes despite these opinions.

I worry that I have a cowardly and/or selfish position regarding pets and livestock. I dont like to be too vocal about any aspect lest the attention of the exotic-haters be drawn to my own hobby. That's why I sometimes get a little nervous by even the most well-meaning of reptile enthusiasts who turn in bad pet stores, etc.. I hate to see the radicals supplied with ammo. :shrugs:

 

[starsevol]

I hope this discussion continues in a civil fashion.

There is a wide spectrum of opinions on man's treatment and use of animals. You have everything from those who spraypaint fur coats to trophy hunters. Part of that spectrum, and not a small part, consists of people who for different reasons don't think that snakes should be kept in private owners' hands at all. We can probably all laugh at the ones who feel that way because they consider all snakes to be a physical threat. But what about the ones who feel that keeping domesticated animals is ok, but that keeping wild animals in artificial conditions is wrong? Are these people wrong? I sure as heck don't know. But I'm still going to keep snakes despite these opinions.

I worry that I have a cowardly and/or selfish position regarding pets and livestock. I dont like to be too vocal about any aspect lest the attention of the exotic-haters be drawn to my own hobby. That's why I sometimes get a little nervous by even the most well-meaning of reptile enthusiasts who turn in bad pet stores, etc.. I hate to see the radicals supplied with ammo. :shrugs:

Dean, if you worry that you may have a cowardly or selfish position regarding pets and livestock, IMO you probably don't. Your animals give you pleasure, and in return you keep them well-fed and healthy and safe. It's a fair exchange, I think.
And I hate to see the radicals supplied with ammo too. I personally am for animal welfare, but NOT animal rights (as was discussed in another thread).

 

[azzagoth]

Are you aware IMO means "In my opinion"?

When I said "IMO, Id rather be a hypocrite then a murderer....." I mean ME MYSELF, ITS MY PREFERENCE AND HAS ZERO TO DO WITH YOU.

You called people who didnt kill their own feed hypocrital, so I said Id rather be hypocrital then a murderer.


Would it have been better if I said 'Id rather be hypocrital then someone who sticks live pinks in the freezer'? Is that better? Im sorry I dont know how to sugar coat it. How about "id rather be a hypocrite then someone who kills their own feed" Is that better? Is "kill" better then murder? I dont know what to tell you ......Dont take it out on me because you are how you put it "feeling guilty"

I specified I didnt have a problem with other people killing their own feed.....you DIDNT SPECIFY ANYTHING BUT PEOPLE WHO WERENT DOING AS YOU, BEING HYPOCRITICAL.

I am not confused, I know what I said and meant....



I NEVER EVER said that I was better then you because I used frozen feed. NEVER.

In fact, you were the first person who felt it necessary to name call.

YOU ......called people who allowed others to kill their feed for them “Hypocritical” so in reality, your the one who thinks she is better because she does NOT buy frozen feed. Its not me that thinks she is better then the other side, its you.


I am done with this topic, and for future reference, when you want people to sympathize with you.....dont put them down.

I just have to correct you on yet another few things. Yes, I know very well what IMO means, and I was talking about your opinions, so where are you getting at? I did not call people who don't breed their food hypocrites, I said people who buy frozen and think they are BETTER then the people who actually have to kill the animals are IMO hypocrites. I have NO problems with people buying frozen food, jeezz.

YES, I did feel bad for the pinkies. but atleast I can admit to it, and I do know my role in it. (read: unlike you)

I do NOT feel better then people not raising mice, I said I know what my snakes are being fed and what lives the feeders have had. I still buy frozen sometimes myself, so what you are getting at here is just ridiculous.

I don't see any point in continuing this with you. And I did not make this into a problem before YOU did.

 

[azzagoth]

I hope this discussion continues in a civil fashion.
...
I worry that I have a cowardly and/or selfish position regarding pets and livestock. I dont like to be too vocal about any aspect lest the attention of the exotic-haters be drawn to my own hobby. That's why I sometimes get a little nervous by even the most well-meaning of reptile enthusiasts who turn in bad pet stores, etc.. I hate to see the radicals supplied with ammo. :shrugs:

I will take that advice, thank you. I just didn't think snake owners would have that much against people actually keeping feeders. :shrugs:

 

[Roy Munson]

I just didn't think snake owners would have that much against people actually keeping feeders. :shrugs:

And I knew from the minute I finished reading your opening post that the thread would turn out like this. Whether it's rodent or snake euthanasia, or just about any thread where life or death decisions or methods are discussed, you get passionate opinions. It's not a bad thing as long as the discussions are civil and we respect others' opinions.

 

[hannibal21222]

i think putting them in the freezer is a bit harsh, i throw them on the concrete hard enough to kill on the first blow, i feel it's very humane considering they die instantly, it crushes the skull.

 

[Alien Zulu]

I mean, is that really necessary? Its completely juvenile and ridiculous.

sorry if that came of as juvenile and ridiculous
it was actually a serious question
do you feel remorse if you squash a bug?
if not then why not? is it because "it's just a bug"?

 

[starsevol]

I don't squash MOST bugs. Not on purpose anyway. I move them outside. I will squash a mosquito because of triple e and west nile virus.

And squashing is a fairly humane method of euthanizing bugs, wouldn't you say?

 

[Corny Noob]

While a good discussion is always nice, I've been reading this from the start and I think some of you are getting way too involved in this.
Opinions well they're like assholes everyone has them.

The topic creator felt bad about something, end of topic. It wasn't a "gee maybe I should feed frozen instead" or "maybe I shouldn't have snakes because I feel bad killing their prey" topic. It was none of those.
Just someone feeling human emotions and feeling bad over something they did.

No need to anaylze this so much, write page long posts or start calling ideals ridicoulus or juvinelle.

 

[Alien Zulu]

I don't squash MOST bugs. Not on purpose anyway. I move them outside. I will squash a mosquito because of triple e and west nile virus.

And squashing is a fairly humane method of euthanizing bugs, wouldn't you say?

just because it's humane doesn't change the fact that it's still "just a bug"
how is that any different than saying "it's just a mouse?"
is it because mice are cuter than mosquitoes?

let's not forget that this whole argument/discussion started because i said "they're just mice" and you somehow equated that to abandoning kittens and kicking the family dog and told me that there is a special place in hell for people who think the way i do

let me reiterate that i in no way condone the mistreatment of any living thing
i don't know how you pulled that out of the statement "they're just mice"
THEY ARE JUST MICE
i have several pets
a dog, snake, and 2 sugar gliders
i would never mistreat or let anyone else mistreat any of my animals
i go out of my way to make sure they are cared for above and beyond what they need but i'm not blind to the fact that they are still just a dog, just a snake, and just a pair of sugar gliders

i also want to say that i'm sorry if i have offended anyone in this thread
things always get heated in these type of discussions and i may have said some things i shouldn't have. i just get defensive when people take what i say completely out of context and try to throw it back at me
i respect everyone's opinion and i actually thank you for sharing them with me
i hope we can all accept each others different views on this matter and be friends
as long as no one is mistreating their animals then there should be no problems right?

btw: i also buy all my mice frozen from the pet store. i don't do it to avoid killing mice. i don't raise them because i have no need for that volume (yet). i would humanely euthanize my own mice if it was necessary and i wouldn't feel bad about it. does that make me such a bad person? :shrugs:

 

[starsevol]

just because it's humane doesn't change the fact that it's still "just a bug"
how is that any different than saying "it's just a mouse?"
is it because mice are cuter than mosquitoes?

let's not forget that this whole argument/discussion started because i said "they're just mice" and you somehow equated that to abandoning kittens and kicking the family dog and told me that there is a special place in hell for people who think the way i do

let me reiterate that i in no way condone the mistreatment of any living thing
i don't know how you pulled that out of the statement "they're just mice"
THEY ARE JUST MICE
i have several pets
a dog, snake, and 2 sugar gliders
i would never mistreat or let anyone else mistreat any of my animals
i go out of my way to make sure they are cared for above and beyond what they need but i'm not blind to the fact that they are still just a dog, just a snake, and just a pair of sugar gliders

i also want to say that i'm sorry if i have offended anyone in this thread
things always get heated in these type of discussions and i may have said some things i shouldn't have. i just get defensive when people take what i say completely out of context and try to throw it back at me
i respect everyone's opinion and i actually thank you for sharing them with me
i hope we can all accept each others different views on this matter and be friends
as long as no one is mistreating their animals then there should be no problems right?

btw: i also buy all my mice frozen from the pet store. i don't do it to avoid killing mice. i don't raise them because i have no need for that volume (yet). i would humanely euthanize my own mice if it was necessary and i wouldn't feel bad about it. does that make me such a bad person? :shrugs:

No, I don't believe that you are a bad person, AT ALL. It's just that most of the people who DO abuse animals do it and explain themselves by reasoning "it's just a...". I see it all the time.
I don't believe in "animal rights", but I DO think that NO living creature is a "justa" and that even the smallest of lives deserve some respect.

 

[azzagoth]

I don't squash MOST bugs. Not on purpose anyway. I move them outside. I will squash a mosquito because of triple e and west nile virus.

And squashing is a fairly humane method of euthanizing bugs, wouldn't you say?

I thought I was the only one who picked up a bug, and then put it outside :cheers:

Not to say I always do this, but if it's just as convenient getting it out the door or window as killing it, I usually do that. On the other hand, I can't honestly say I feel too bad when squashing a bug, I just try to avoid it.

 

[azzagoth]

i think putting them in the freezer is a bit harsh, i throw them on the concrete hard enough to kill on the first blow, i feel it's very humane considering they die instantly, it crushes the skull.

Wouldn't that create a big mess with the pinkies? Splatter everywhere I mean

 

[azzagoth]

I also did not mean to offend anyone when making this thread. There seems to be a very good and active community on this forum, and I did not wish to get the whole lot of you against me on my opening thread. So I hope that those of you who it concerns can overlook that and hopefully we can get on a better start :wavey:

I'll make an introduction in the introduction part of this forum now

 

[Corny Noob]

Hey I tried to defend you :grin01: