identifying a lavender

[JFDery]

I've posted a question on faunaclassifieds.com and was recommended this forum. I'll be copy/pasting much of my prior post:

What should I look for to positively identify a lavender?

Do they invariably have ruby eyes? If so, is it always obvious on the hatchlings?

These animals were clutch mates.

The parents look like the "normal" one in the back. I've been calling them ghosts, since anery specimens have also pop out, and a normal hypo specimen this year. The parent project is for normal colored Aztecs, but these animals have an odd looking hypo as comon ancester, at first glance, that hypo looked amel, with about 3 black scales on the entire body. The father of these is a regular Aztec, het for at least anery type A and hypo we should also suppose.

I've been supposing that these are anerys with that strain of hypo (which I highly doubt is type A). Even if not from that strain, I'm pretty sure these are hypo something... maybe there is ALSO something else??? I bought some hypo lavs from V.Russo this year, and they really don't look like any of the babies.

I've seen babies for sale (CSM) that look quite a bit like the babies I have here, that turn out like the "peach" looking specimen.

This is what they looked like as babies,

So far the only thing I can think of is that both parents are Hets for:
Anery type A; Hypo type ?; and if those ARE lavs then also Lavender (which is a type of anery???).

I have had some private messages from reputable breeders saying they are certain these are Lavs, however, I had not mentioned that these were clutch mates, that the pair also produces anery A, and that the ones that are not hypos do not look like lavs at all, maybe this makes a difference.

Looking foward to read your comments, Jean

 

[pewter]

no comments so far???
very strange. these snakes are outstanding!
people post bad pic´s of ugly snakes and get many replys and these get not one!
oh, and to your questions ... I simply don´t know

 

[Naeris]

Your snakes

I don't know either, I'm new to snakes! But I will say, the colourings are lovely.....

 

[Susan]

I'm surprised as well, especially after I recommended this site to you. You've gotten 83 views, but no help with possible ID on what, if any, hypo gene may be involved. The Ultra Mystery post is multiple pages long, but none of the hypo "experts" can even give an opinion here. I'm a bit disappointed.

On the off chance that these "experts" really haven't seen this thread, try re-posting using a different title, something like "Help with which hypo gene ID". Could be worth a try.

And I still want them!

 

[Clint Boyer]

I think the reason there are so few answers is that anery and Lavender together is just not a proven combination yet. The anery looking snakes could be het Lav or even homo Lav.
They are very nice snakes either way!

P.S. It seems Lavenders have enough natural variation that the first two could be Lavs but at either end of the spectrum.

 

[pewter]

yes Clint, both animals on his own could be normal lavenders. but these are from one clutch

 

[Menhir]

They grey one is absolutely stunning - I love the grey ones and this may be the best looking snake that I've seen for long.

 

[JFDery]

Thanks for replying,

Both these animals have ruby eyes, but not as bright as the "hypo lav" I bought from V.Russo.

IMO the washed out black on both specimens suggests hypomelanism, lavender or not.

I need to explain how I understand hypomelanism to support my questionings on identifying lavenders. From what I have seen on my animals, here is how I have understood the effects of hypomelanism on snakes. - By the way, these are my observations only, I'm not trying to teach anybody about hypomelanism, and I have not followed the hypo debates - Without even going into which types are compatible with one and the other, I beleive we can describe the effect of hypomelanism in at least two ways:
1: A reduction of black - quantity wise, for example, like what I am use to see called Type A.

2: A reduction of the black pigment - In intensity, for example, what I have seen marketed as "sunkissed okeetees". All the same quantity of surface on a scale is given to black as in a normal okeetee, but the black is reduced in intensity, bleached. In these animals, I have noticed that the hypomelanism appears to also effect the intensity of black in the eyes, giving them a deep ruby color, is it also the case with sunkissed?

I have also noticed that some specimens show BOTH caracteristics, resulting, for example, of reduced quantity of black pigment that is also reduced in intensity (appears brownish), perhaps a DOUBLE mutation?

Were I see a problem considering these animals as lavs, is that they were brothers to also a typical black (anery) specimen AND a normal colored hypo specimen ( don't know which type, but black reduced in intensity). So I suppose if HYPO LAVS are being marketed, then a "regular lav" should not show signs of hypomelanism.

If the grey animal is a hypo version of the black specimen in the same clutch, and that the same hypo type affects the orange one - where does that peach/orange coloration come from? How can we prove this to be or NOT be a lav?

Here's another pic of the grey one, sorry if the pic is a bit crappy, but I didn't want to use a flash, so to show colors as true as possible.

- Clint: I don't quite understand what you mean "anery and Lavender together is just not a proven combination yet"

- Pewter: "no comments so far???" I believe people have been busy with the Ultra Mystery post... no matter, I'm in no rush.

Thank you again for your coments.
Jean François Déry

 

[Gorn]

Beautyful snakes JF!

I think that the only way of verifying if your snake is a lav, will be to breed it to a proven lavender. And if they prove to produce lav hatchlings, you gonna have to send me the babies in Montreal for Further exploration of there genetic background :crazy02:

 

[cka]

They are just outstanding looking snakes...I really hope you get them into some breeding trials, if to just eliminate what they may be to see whats left...Hope ya keep us updated, JF :*)

 

[kocorns]

I am in love

I am at a loss for words..............sooooooo sweeeeeeeet. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ecreipeoj]

A Lavender Mystery! There are a lot of mysteries yet to be solved within the Lavender group. I have to ask a question, before I can really connect your mystery to one that I am seeing here.

Is the Normal by the Lav in the first photo opaque? The eyes tell me no. Is this the “Hypo” that you are talking about, that you do not believe is Hypo A, because if it is and that snake is not opaque, then I think you have a piece of the puzzle in the Lavender Mystery. There is a mysterious hypo type gene floating around in the Lavender group that looks very odd. I have described it as looking milky, but opaque looking would be about the same thing.

Besides the Lavender “Ghost hypo” gene, ( That will cause a naming thread, but they look like a Ghost. I call one of mine Casper.) the ruby eyes we are seeing in Lavenders and other morphs is another mystery. I was ask this same question in an email the other day and I just kissed it off as a possible eye color gene. This may be true, but in mice, which we like to use as examples a lot, many of the mutant genes that are subtle, and only have a slight effect on the appearance of other mutant genes have pink or ruby eyes. All of the snakes that I have that have ruby eyes, have something about them that is different than their normal eyed counter parts. Lavenders are just a little lighter and more colorful (purple), Ghost are lighter and so are the other Ruby Eyes. Is there a gene the is having a dilute type effect on our snakes that also causes them to have Ruby Eyes? I think this is a possibility. I have seen comments like, “I have no idea.”, well I am not sure either, but I think there is more to the Ruby Eyed snakes than meets the eye.

 

[Rich Z]

I think the reason there are so few answers is that anery and Lavender together is just not a proven combination yet. The anery looking snakes could be het Lav or even homo Lav.
They are very nice snakes either way!

P.S. It seems Lavenders have enough natural variation that the first two could be Lavs but at either end of the spectrum.

For the last three years, I have bred 'A' Anerythristics together that were het for Lavender and gotten approximately 25 percent of the babies hatching out as Lavenders. That tends to strongly suggest that Lavender dominates over 'A' Anerythrism when an animal is homozygous for both genes.

This year, for the first time, I bred some of those Lavenders from the above project together to see what the results would be:

Now, if I had never seen this dramatic variance in Lavenders from many other clutches I have produced, I have to confess that I would be real confused about what I am seeing above. But those animals are all well within tolerance of being normal for variability in what Lavenders will look like as babies. Although the difference as babies is quite noticeable, when they reach full adulthood, you would find it rather difficult to tell which ones where which as babies.

So is there another genetic influence in there? I know I have had some of those Lavenders from that Anerythristic project turn out rather interesting looking. I had one of them at the Daytona Beach show this past August and it was quite a comment getter with viewers. It appears to be losing it's pattern, and is very odd looking, even for a Lavender corn.

So yeah, there are quite probably some surprises yet lurking in that gene pool that need to be uncovered.

 

[ecreipeoj]

So yeah, there are quite probably some surprises yet lurking in that gene pool that need to be uncovered.

Boy, you can say that again!

If I didn't know better, and I may not, just looking at the clutch above is like looking at any other clutch that has one of the parent snake that is Homo for a trait and the other is het. for that trait. Like perhaps a "Pink Gene" or “Lack of pink gene. Throw in the “Ruby Eye” Gene and we would have a lot of possibilities.

I GUESS a hypothesis is less than a Theory, but I am SEEING pink and ruby eyes in the lavender group, so there must be more to it than just variation with in the morph. We are also seeing similar things in the Anery A group and/or hypo combos as well. Are they related? Can we say Blue Motleys?

This mysterious Lavender “Ghost Hypo” seems to be more than a phenomenon, at least to me. It seems to be real and may have a simple but difficult to discover cause. I have always thought that it was contained “within” the Lavender gene, but I also thought if we could SEE it elsewhere, then perhaps it could be isolated out. I can come up with a few hypothesis concerning the mystery gene, especially with our new genetic way of thinking. Remember a hypothesis is a GUESS, but may be more for unknown reasons to the hypothesizer.

Sunset Lavenders come to mind when I think of this “Ghost Hypo”, but why can’t we see it in other morphs? Perhaps we can. I have normals that are dull or flat in the same group. Co-dominant, recessive, dominant, alleles, man there are a lot of possibilities. I am beginning to think that the Sunsets are a homo version of something and the “Ghost Hypo” is a co-dominant version of something, but co-dominant to what? Is this “Ghost Hypo” an allele with something? If so, what? Is my Casper and Dull Normals a result of a co-dominant effect of one gene, and the Sunsets a Homo or Super version of this gene? (I am sorry Paulh, I couldn’t resist, my boa pseudo genetics)

I skipped over this thread many times, because of the title, which could be changed to Lavender Mystery, because IDENTIFING Lavenders with all of the mysteries they seem to contain, is not an easy task.

We have to drag Paulh into this discussion. What is the gene called that changes my Blue Rat (Which is cause by a homo dilute gene of Black Rats) into a ruby eyed pastel Blue Rat that looks lavender? It is obviously a simple on/off gene. Black eyes=Blue Rat, Ruby Eyes= pastel version. I won’t call them Lavender because that is a Dilute Brown rat. They are Blue Rats, based on the Black gene, but a lighter blue version with Ruby eyes. Does this sound familiar?

 

[ecreipeoj]

I know I have had some of those Lavenders from that Anerythristic project turn out rather interesting looking. I had one of them at the Daytona Beach show this past August and it was quite a comment getter with viewers. It appears to be losing it's pattern, and is very odd looking, even for a Lavender corn.

Do you have a picture?

There are a lot of ODD looking Lavenders wouldn't you all say? Ruby eyed, pink, lighter, ghost looking, sunset and on and on. Maybe Rich's Anery A Lavender is a "Ghost Hypo" as well or a complete mystery! I like mysteries.

 

[ecreipeoj]

The parents look like the "normal" one in the back. I've been calling them ghosts, since anery specimens have also pop out, and a normal hypo specimen this year. The parent project is for normal colored Aztecs, but these animals have an odd looking hypo as comon ancester, at first glance, that hypo looked amel, with about 3 black scales on the entire body. The father of these is a regular Aztec, het for at least anery type A and hypo we should also suppose.

I've been supposing that these are anerys with that strain of hypo (which I highly doubt is type A). Even if not from that strain, I'm pretty sure these are hypo something... maybe there is ALSO something else???

So far the only thing I can think of is that both parents are Hets for:
Anery type A; Hypo type ?; and if those ARE lavs then also Lavender (which is a type of anery???).

Looking foward to read your comments, Jean

Hi Jean, I have to agree with you. I think that you have already figured it out. If that Normal Snake is not opaque and is the Odd Hypo that you are referring to, which I think it is, it does not look like any hypo that I have ever seen. I think I am asking for trouble calling the mystery hypo gene in the Lavender group a “Ghost Hypo”, but perhaps “Opaque” Hypo, may work for now or something like that. Maybe “Milk” Hypo may work. LOL

You may have the Lavender gene in this group, which seems likely with the extreme Aztec patterns that you are getting, but this snake may just be an “Opaque” Hypo, Anery A Ghost, like you think. When I look at my Blue Motleys, I swear that they look very similar to the color of many Lavenders, and then people will say they look just like Anery A’s to them. I don’t get that. They at least look like an “Opaque Hypo” Ghost! Maybe these are Blue Anery A. without the Motley.

I don’t know what you have going on in your snakes, but I have to say that it is extremely interesting and may be a piece of the puzzle to one of our many mysteries. (Lavender or Blue Motley and/or both or others)

Do you happen to have a photo or can you get a photo of the odd looking hypo that is a common ancestor to these corns? It sounds like the odd looking hypo and your “Opaque” Hypo would be very interesting to get involved in the Hypo Test Breeding Project.

 

[JFDery]

Hi Joe,

The normal specimen in the background on the first photo is really a normal, it's a clean animal, but not hypo. The belly is really black and white, the black borders are also anything but dilute. A friend has the hypo in question, and also pics of that odd hypo ancester, but they are 35mm and he's not really close to here so it may take a while.

Sorry for the lousy title ;-) I didn't know there was such "mystery" in the lavenders. I'll try to post pics of all of this year's babies that I beleive are in that poolor combo... I have some that are "hypoish", but that's really nothing compared to the 2004 hypo hatchling - I really dont beleive it's a type A, REALLY not. I'll be able to meet up with him before xmas, I'll then shoot some pics.

Jean

 

[JFDery]

Here's a few pics of the ones I kept this year:

This is the anery...

They look a bit dark on the pics for nor, but trust me, I'll post more pics in a couple months ;-)

 

[ecreipeoj]

The normal specimen in the background on the first photo is really a normal, it's a clean animal, but not hypo.

I have some that are "hypoish", but that's really nothing compared to the 2004 hypo hatchling - I really dont beleive it's a type A, REALLY not.
Jean

I wasn't talking about the normal in the background. I was referring to the one on the right and bottom. Is that the hypo in question? It doesn't look like a Type A and doesn't look like anything that I have seen before, except perhaps an opaque normal.

I see the one that looks like a Lavender, but I could see it also being a result of your odd hypo and Anery A as well. A Ghost type, created with Anery A and a Hypo?

 

[JFDery]

Joe:

I was referring to the one on the right and bottom.

Well it's not the hypo in question, but yes its a hypo. I though it was MAYBE the same type of ghost as the silvery one, but enhanced with some red/orange/peach, as it sometimes happens with anerys as well.

A Ghost type, created with Anery A and a Hypo?

That's what I think for the moment too.

Jean