Newbie-ess & problem

[JemmaUK]

Hi

Im Jemma, from the UK & owner of (I hope) a female crimson & a male anery corn respectively. They are both young juveniles in the same viv (yes I know, dont start, they seem fine and happy with each other)

I could do with some help as the female seems not to want to eat - shes refused three times now - its as if she turns her nose up at it and isnt interested - im feeding every three days or so. One pinkie. Shes pooping ok, with approx equal measure dark/urate/liquid - no blood or anything obvious that I can see.. and her mouth is not gaping.

Both of them - once they are picked up are calm and content to be held and just wander around exploring my hands, the girl likes to curl up in my hair or over my glasses frames and will sit there happy for over an hour... so I dont think they are at all stressed. They arent droopy or listless and their tongues go a mile a minute - making a little tiny click every time which is cute. Neither of them like being put back, they try and make it as difficult as possible for me..

The female shed two days after I got her - which would explain why she was pretty frantic after getting here - so I dont think its that shes in blue again, although her belly is showing the same iridescence as she did when she was shedding...

I did have one instance with the grey of regurgitation but I know that was because of overfeeding - so I left it a few days and gave him the smallest pinkie I could get - he was fine (I know it was him because I came home and caught him just after the act in the middle of the day). The Crimson took a meal the same time and was her usual ravenous self but she hasnt eaten since and I am beginning to get worried.

They will both take food from my hands without problem - she did try for my index finger once but soon realised that I wasnt lunch - I felt less from that than from her tongue.

The temps seem ok - they like to sit right in the middle on the edge of the heat mat - there is plenty of hide area - they have access to clean water & the substrate is kitchen roll.

Does anyone have any ideas why she should suddenly go off her food like that? I have, I should mention already tried braining - if anything that put her off more. Any ideas how I can get her to eat again - I dont want them getting disparate in size if I can help it...

And yes - Im addicted to the little cuties

thanks in advance

Jemma xx

P.S. does anyone know if corns can see colour? - I ask because the only times I have seen them drink is when I fill the white sink in the bathroom and they drink from my hands - they dont seem to touch the brown water dish in their viv - its the same water - so could it be the colour they dont like?

 

[diamondlil]

They are not fine if one isn't eating, so I'd suggest separating them as the first step. Co-habbing can cause stress, snakes are solitary by nature, so maybe competing for the best resources is not helping your female. (Laying in hides together isn't affection, they are both after the same ideal spot) Also cohabbing sub-adults can mean breeding too early, putting strain on a young female that you could lose to egg-binding.
Secondly, I'd suggest not handling the female at all until she's feeding reliably again. Handling a young snake is also a stress, and you want her conserving her energy for growth, not using it during handling sessions.
She could be going into shed again, and some snakes regularly refuse to eat in shed, frustrating I know but not that unusual, out of mine I've got 6 that just won't eat until after shed.
A really hot, dry-thawed pinky offered in a small tub overnight might kick-start her feeding response, but don't offer too soon, space feeding attempts out to 4-5 day intervals, offering too often can just condition the refusal to become more likely. Using a hairdryer to warm the pinky through works well, but not too close or the damn thing flies out of your hand!

 

[Ayin]

Were the two of them cohabited together before you got them? If not, that may be part of your problem.

I say this because my female corn was a problem feeder for the person who owned her before me (she was regurging). In retrospect, he thought it may have been because she could see other snakes from her viv - we talked about a month after I got her, and I've never had feeding issues with her. She is on the nervous side, so being able to even see another snake may have stressed her out. Since adding to the collection, I've always made sure she can't see into another viv, and she's been fine.

If your girl isn't accustomed to living with another snake, or has a temperament like mine, living with a "buddy" may stress her out too much to eat.

I can't help you on the color question.

 

[JemmaUK]

They are not fine if one isn't eating, so I'd suggest separating them as the first step. Co-habbing can cause stress, snakes are solitary by nature, so maybe competing for the best resources is not helping your female. (Laying in hides together isn't affection, they are both after the same ideal spot) Also cohabbing sub-adults can mean breeding too early, putting strain on a young female that you could lose to egg-binding.
Secondly, I'd suggest not handling the female at all until she's feeding reliably again. Handling a young snake is also a stress, and you want her conserving her energy for growth, not using it during handling sessions.
She could be going into shed again, and some snakes regularly refuse to eat in shed, frustrating I know but not that unusual, out of mine I've got 6 that just won't eat until after shed.
A really hot, dry-thawed pinky offered in a small tub overnight might kick-start her feeding response, but don't offer too soon, space feeding attempts out to 4-5 day intervals, offering too often can just condition the refusal to become more likely. Using a hairdryer to warm the pinky through works well, but not too close or the damn thing flies out of your hand!

Its not at all likely shes going into shed since its only been a few days since the last one. The 7th of this month in fact.

I have researched all the stuff I can find about co-hab and its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other - some people hate it some people like it. Its not ideal in my opinion but at the moment its the only option I have. I measured the crimsons shed skin at 50cms, I very much doubt shes anywhere near old enough to breed or even be interested.

I have to handle her to put her in the feeding container - she seems to love her own reflection in there btw - I hadnt thought of using the hairdryer - I might try that actually. I have up until now been using the hot water thaw method.

I have looked at my records and its been 5 days since shes eaten - in that time gray has taken 2 feeds - I know its not disaster area yet but im starting to get a little worried because they've no spare fat to use if they are not feeding.

 

[diamondlil]

Its not at all likely shes going into shed since its only been a few days since the last one. The 7th of this month in fact.

I have researched all the stuff I can find about co-hab and its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other - some people hate it some people like it. Its not ideal in my opinion but at the moment its the only option I have. I measured the crimsons shed skin at 50cms, I very much doubt shes anywhere near old enough to breed or even be interested.

I have to handle her to put her in the feeding container - she seems to love her own reflection in there btw - I hadnt thought of using the hairdryer - I might try that actually. I have up until now been using the hot water thaw method.

I have looked at my records and its been 5 days since shes eaten - in that time gray has taken 2 feeds - I know its not disaster area yet but im starting to get a little worried because they've no spare fat to use if they are not feeding.

How often are you feeding? 5-6 day intervals is normal for hatchlings on pinks, then leave alone for 2-3 days with no handling so they can digest, you don't feed them every other day. Handling whilst digesting is a sure recipe for regurges. (Putting in a feeding tub doesn't count, holding them for 15 mins or more is handling)

 

[Lucille]

It Its not ideal in my opinion but at the moment its the only option I have.

Cohabbing isn't ideal. A new viv can be had very inexpensively, a small kritter keeper or the like. If the problem is stress due to cohabbing, then spending time and energy looking into other stuff isn't going to net a good return for you.

Here's some good general advice, the cohabbing section includes some links to a couple threads you could read.


http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28341

 

[JemmaUK]

Of the two of them Claudia (the crimson) is if anything the less nervous of the two and was eating absolutely fine until recently... I dont know of their history previous because they came from a dealer but they are both healthy - or at least they arent showing any of the signs I have learned to watch for.

I fed them on a two day interval the once - because I was worried about the male being hungry and feeding Claudia on her own might give him ideas... usually I feed every three days which is what I was told by a breeder I enquired of... and then I would feed with bigger intervals but bigger items as they grew..

How do you tell a nervous snake from one that isnt? They both seem calm to me, if anything Claudia's the calmer of the two. neither bite, they dont 'rattle' - about the only thing they do with their tails is raise them when they poop. They do 'S' occasionally when I get them out of the viv or accidently bop their noses or move too fast but they seem docile in comparison to the ballistic missiles/bite factories that some people have mentioned on here.

I am going to let them alone the next 3 days completely then I will try and feed them again. Hopefully Claudia will take something next time.

 

[JemmaUK]

Cohabbing isn't ideal. A new viv can be had very inexpensively, a small kritter keeper or the like. If the problem is stress due to cohabbing, then spending time and energy looking into other stuff isn't going to net a good return for you.

Here's some good general advice, the cohabbing section includes some links to a couple threads you could read.


http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28341

As I said - I dont think its ideal either - but as of now I dont have any other options. If she doesnt eat in the next few days - 3-4 or so - then I will look at housing her separately in a small/medium plastic box or something, since that is all I can afford...
I dont have transport and I live in a town thats the backside of nowhere so getting stuff cheap is nigh on impossible. So far as I know we no longer even have a pet shop in town - it closed fairly recently... so I will have to make do and mend as it were.

 

[bitsy]

Plastic tubs are a pretty well-established way of housing hatchlings, so that'd be absolutely fine.

 

[diamondlil]

Seriously, 2 or 3 day intervals is too often. 5 days when they are on tiny 1g pinks is ok, but 6 days is the usual interval for hatchlings once they are established. (By which I mean after their first shed, eat 4-5 meals and ready to sell). Have you got a wooden or all glass viv? How is it heated, how is the temperature regulated and measured? Knowing the set-up makes it easier to help.
My hatchlings start off in the microwave tubs (like chineses takeaway containers that I buy in Wilkos, then keepers graduate into lunch-box sixe containers at around 5-6 months, and so on to full size tubs because I use racks. Hatchlings do really well in small tubs, it may seem strange but bigger living spaces at that stage can really set them back. The tubs don't have to be bare, I get bad-taste flowers for the little 'uns to hide in and under.

 

[JemmaUK]

Its a two foot by one foot by 8 inch perspex with a louvered top & two latched opening panels.

Im using a heat mat under one end set by thermostat at 85f - its a little warm to the touch on the warm side - substrate is a layer of kitchen towel and a layer of softer paper above that. It does have a sensor but the thing is pitiful *sigh*... I might relocate it so it touches the floor when I feed again. There is a long hide which is a piece of bark that covers three quarters length - and a small hide which is - of all things a small pouch for an ancient webcam - they both tend to like that one and they'll either be one under each or both under one. They seem to like curling up in the fabric hide. The water container is a typical store bought dirty brown thing with attempts at 'naturalisation' - I swear its putting them off water lol, it would me.

When Claudia shed she tore the skin just abaft the vent - so I had to help her a little with that by putting her into a little tepid water for a few minutes and then helping her get the end off - I have been misting occasionally because of that.

I did try putting them back in the little plastic containers they came in - but they completely freaked - bad associations I guess - there are some containers in the pound shop in town that I might get a couple of and transfer them to those... wait until they are bigger to put them back into the vivarium.

I am beginning to get the impression I might have been doing a fairly good job of killing with kindness here. As i said before I will leave them another 3 days and then try and feed again - see how it goes...

Another odd thing I have noticed. When she shed she got more yellow along the backbone areas of the base colour so there is an area along her backbone that is variable shades of beige - which I expected to happen - or at least wasnt a surprise... but the red saddles seem to be changing too - there are areas within the saddles that are turning the base colour (a dirty blueish grey). These areas are within the back saddles to each side, like a patch within a patch... which I didnt think happened in Crimsons...?

When babies are handled are they supposed to move fast or move slowly if they are ok with it? mine will often tie themselves in knots around one hand and just sit there looking around with interest - or will attempt to turn themselves into little snake twigs - they especially like watching movement on a computer screen but at one of them hates the music of J.S. Bach of all things... Claudia went mad listening to that on iplayer (it wasnt loud) and I suspect there was a frequency in there she didnt like - like my music teachers poodle and F-sharp (I have never, before or since, heard a dog make a noise like that in my life...!).

 

[starsevol]

I would seperate as soon as possible. Snakes are solitary by nature, and co habbing WILL lead to stress. Stress can cause a bunch of health problems, and shorten your animals lifespan considerably.
And if you have a male and a female, he WILL try to breed with her too early, which can cause egg binding and kill her.
The hatchling in my avatar is the result of a cohab. I had a rack burn up and needed to house 2 snakes together temporarily. The female became eggbound and died.....

Imagine if someone locked you in a house with someone you can't stand, and forced you to live close to that person forever. No escape. Do you think your health might be affected? That is the reality of your snake's lives every single day you force them to be together.....

 

[JemmaUK]

I would seperate as soon as possible. Snakes are solitary by nature, and co habbing WILL lead to stress. Stress can cause a bunch of health problems, and shorten your animals lifespan considerably.
And if you have a male and a female, he WILL try to breed with her too early, which can cause egg binding and kill her.
The hatchling in my avatar is the result of a cohab. I had a rack burn up and needed to house 2 snakes together temporarily. The female became eggbound and died.....

Imagine if someone locked you in a house with someone you can't stand, and forced you to live close to that person forever. No escape. Do you think your health might be affected? That is the reality of your snake's lives every single day you force them to be together.....

There is one slight problem with this - both the hides are in exactly the same position - half on and half off the warmed area. If the snakes hated the sight of each other they have two places that are identical in temperature to go to yet they mostly dont... they either curl together in one or the other. occasionally one will be found alone, but not very often.

As a matter of fact Corns, along with other snakes such as Garter Snakes congregate when they brumate - as shown wonderfully recently by Attenborough yet again..

They are still barely more than hatchlings - neither of them are mature enough to mate. I will separate them anyway in the fullness of time, at the latest within the next 3 months, and sooner if Claudia doesnt take food in the next few days.

I was in that exactly situation - parents who more than once attempted to kill me, and when that attracted the interest of the local polizei they switched to verbal and emotional abuse - so please do not attempt to liken this situation to that because I find it very deeply offensive.

While I may not be the expert you claim to be I am fully capable of looking after animals, and making my own decisions on advice received - and so far, I have not lost a single animal of any species to anything other than natural old age - and I have, so I am told, a natural affinity (including being the only stranger not to be munched on by various dogs that are rabid death to anyone other that their owner) so please dont give me orders or patronise me - I have had enough of that from various surgeons & doctors over my lifetime.

The advice I have had over cornsnakes varies wildly from one extreme to the other on virtually every possible subject... even some of the information in the cornsnake book I have seems to be contradicted here & thats supposedly authored by the high priestess of this particular skill.

I dont take any animals welfare lightly - nor do I treat humans any different. If changes need to be made they will be made, but I dont have the money at the moment to do so and i am not convinced of the necessity quite yet, considering that if the snakes are stressed, yanking them out of a vivarium and putting them in a sandwich box is hardly going to gain me mommie of the week award in their eyes... and if they arent - doing the self same thing will make them so...

 

[bitsy]

supposedly authored by the high priestess of this particular skill.

Kathy is a board member here and posts regularly. You might want to tone it down a little. She is highly thought of throughout the Corn Snake world and if you've recieved advice that's contradictory to Kathy's then ten-to-one it's not Kathy who's wrong.

 

[starsevol]

There is one slight problem with this - both the hides are in exactly the same position - half on and half off the warmed area. If the snakes hated the sight of each other they have two places that are identical in temperature to go to yet they mostly dont... they either curl together in one or the other. occasionally one will be found alone, but not very often.

As a matter of fact Corns, along with other snakes such as Garter Snakes congregate when they brumate - as shown wonderfully recently by Attenborough yet again..

They are still barely more than hatchlings - neither of them are mature enough to mate. I will separate them anyway in the fullness of time, at the latest within the next 3 months, and sooner if Claudia doesnt take food in the next few days.

I was in that exactly situation - parents who more than once attempted to kill me, and when that attracted the interest of the local polizei they switched to verbal and emotional abuse - so please do not attempt to liken this situation to that because I find it very deeply offensive.

While I may not be the expert you claim to be I am fully capable of looking after animals, and making my own decisions on advice received - and so far, I have not lost a single animal of any species to anything other than natural old age - and I have, so I am told, a natural affinity (including being the only stranger not to be munched on by various dogs that are rabid death to anyone other that their owner) so please dont give me orders or patronise me - I have had enough of that from various surgeons & doctors over my lifetime.

The advice I have had over cornsnakes varies wildly from one extreme to the other on virtually every possible subject... even some of the information in the cornsnake book I have seems to be contradicted here & thats supposedly authored by the high priestess of this particular skill.

I dont take any animals welfare lightly - nor do I treat humans any different. If changes need to be made they will be made, but I dont have the money at the moment to do so and i am not convinced of the necessity quite yet, considering that if the snakes are stressed, yanking them out of a vivarium and putting them in a sandwich box is hardly going to gain me mommie of the week award in their eyes... and if they arent - doing the self same thing will make them so...

I am no "expert" at all. I have only kept snakes for 14 years, which is nothing compared to some of the people here. And I DO have a dead snake to show for my temporary co habbing.
I have heard of garter snakes brumating together, but NEVER cornsnakes.
And I really don't care a whole lot if my comparing the living situation your snakes are going through to your past offends you, it is reality that non social animals suffer when forced to be together. And my analogy FITS, whether you are offended or not! Instinctually, these animals will "appear" to be just fine and dandy when undergoing a huge amount of stress. Why? Because in nature any animal that appears to be stressed or weak has a much better chance of being eaten by something. The one way that they can show stress that won't be detected by a predator is....guess what....NOT EATING!!!

 

[Dazzles]

I think the fact that there are so many different opinions on the issue of cohabitating because there are so many differences in individual snakes. Neither group could be right about corn snakes as a WHOLE with proof to the contrary on each side.

I think your plan of action--giving it a couple more days--is suitable.

You might have been feeding too much and too often and it has only been 5 days.

However, if that doesn't work, your plan to separate and try again is also excellent.

I'll go ahead and use another analogy:

You put your child/pet/loved one in a room with a large dog. 50% of people say that dog will harm and/or kill them. 50% say it won't hurt them at all.

I wouldn't risk it. HALF is really good odds. Especially when signs of stress are impossible to detect in a naturally defensive animal. With one exception: not eating.

But, like others have said, it could just be a case of too much food.

If they need fed every 6 days and yours has only gone 5, doesn't seem like too much of a worry, hon.

 

[snakewispera snr]

I wrote out so much stuff for the OP then deleted it...
As the OP has said... They have a natural affinity to animals and they research everything... So best of luck op...
BTW... Why did you come here to ask for advice if you are going to argue the toss with everyone.....??
In future if you could set out guide lines on the sort of answers you want we'll try and keep our opinions to ourselves and just copy and paste your supplied answers in for you....

 

[diamondlil]

ewwwwwwww! I hear you on the brown water dish, my son was using one for his leopard gecko before she became mine, now Blossom gets a pretty glass dish to drink from!
So they are in a 'Critter keeper' type plastic viv? Not too pricey to set up an identical one then when you do separate them (as you're going to anyway as they grow).
Maybe using a substate they can burrow in would be a good idea, personally I'm not a fan of paper towels except for the first weeks with newly hatched corns, when I need to check they are pooping. They are natural burrowers and climbers and watching them do so is for me part of the fun of having them. Aspen is widely recommended but I use the chopped barley straw (again from Wilkos) as I can't get aspen where I live. Also, they might be squishing in the same hide because it's a bit big, they like to really fit tightly in. Looroll and kitchen roll tubes make good hides for babies and you just replace when they get soiled.

 

[JemmaUK]

I wrote out so much stuff for the OP then deleted it...
As the OP has said... They have a natural affinity to animals and they research everything... So best of luck op...
BTW... Why did you come here to ask for advice if you are going to argue the toss with everyone.....??
In future if you could set out guide lines on the sort of answers you want we'll try and keep our opinions to ourselves and just copy and paste your supplied answers in for you....

Likening snakes who *might* be stressed to a situation where a child - before the age of 4 gets second degree burns in church or is pushed face first through a plate glass window by said parents mother - is offensive to anyone who has been abused.
If you'd bothered to read my responses I have already said they will be separated if needs be and would be separated within the next few months anyway.
I dont mind taking advice on things - I dont mind giving people the benefit of my experiences - and alot of the things I know about I'm one of the very few experts... but d*mn near giving me orders is not passing friendly advice...

Oh and by the way - I just checked on them and they are curled up together like a little snake ball and looking happily out the side of the vivarium at me in a completely different place from their usual hideyholes - that makes three different places where they seem to like spending time together

 

[JemmaUK]

ewwwwwwww! I hear you on the brown water dish, my son was using one for his leopard gecko before she became mine, now Blossom gets a pretty glass dish to drink from!
So they are in a 'Critter keeper' type plastic viv? Not too pricey to set up an identical one then when you do separate them (as you're going to anyway as they grow).
Maybe using a substate they can burrow in would be a good idea, personally I'm not a fan of paper towels except for the first weeks with newly hatched corns, when I need to check they are pooping. They are natural burrowers and climbers and watching them do so is for me part of the fun of having them. Aspen is widely recommended but I use the chopped barley straw (again from Wilkos) as I can't get aspen where I live. Also, they might be squishing in the same hide because it's a bit big, they like to really fit tightly in. Looroll and kitchen roll tubes make good hides for babies and you just replace when they get soiled.

Dont know what type it is - its sorta got a '70's look to it tho, perfectly servicable for all that. I've considered putting some yarn and stuff up for them to hang from etc but they just dont seem interested in the slightest in anything involving movement of any kind *sigh*

the oddest thing about the hides is that they'd pick the biggest one and just sorta loosely coil round each other - then wander to the littler one and end up in a snake-ball with two little heads peering out - just now they've decided that burrowing under the fabric hide is a wonderful game and they are curled up in the very corner of the viv watching the world (aka my feet) go by.

If they had been in the slightest aggressive to each other or acting irritated or grumpy I would have split them up before now - but I just havent seen it... I just see a ball of snake curled up in whatever corner is flavour of the day...

I am thinking about the paper tubes actually - to make some more small hides - maybe some that are suspended if they like to climb - again the advice I have varies on that point too - some people say they climb like chimps on speed and others say they get vertigo on a deep pile carpet...