Normal X Ghost..........'05

[LukeH]

I really like this ghost male. He is sooooo light. I love the yellow and pink colors he has. I wish I had more stripe females, I think the colors he has would make a great ghost stripe. Next season I'll breed him to a stripe female and make some hets.
LukeH

<img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/guedo/IM002758.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

 

[MegF.]

He's sure got a lot of yellow. Is he a cross? His head doesn't look corn. Great looking snake though.

 

[Menhir]

I agree, that amount of yellow on the head an ventral seems a little frosted to me.

 

[Joejr14]

Heh, I sure wasn't about to say anything---but it just doens't look 'right' :sidestep:

 

[LukeH]

He does look different! He may have some gpr(emoryi), he has very large sideblotching. But thats no proof of integration.

:shrugs:

 

[CornCrazy]

Luke...he looks like a frosted ghost (corn x gray rat). I am going to dive right in a say this...if you think he may be a hybrid or intergrade, then you need to make sure that ALL of his babies are sold as possible hybrids. I had a snake that was sold to me as an amel. The longer I had him and the more experience I got, made me believe that my snake was actually a creamsicle. I ended up donating that snake to a high school. Don't get me wrong...I LIKE hybrids, but I refuse to breed them if I suspect they are hybrid but had been sold to me as pure. I just don't think it's right because you don't know the lineage of the snake and you could be selling hybrids as "pure."

 

[gardenmum]

Yeah, I would have to agree that looks like a Frosted Ghost (grey rat X corn cross) not any emory look to that. I have to agree with Terri that care should be taken to mention this about the babies.

Here is a picture of my Frosted Ghost male. Same lots of yellow look and that yellow line down the back, only mine is lighter.

 

[Traci1]

oh yeah there is a major resemblance there between those two. They are very beautiful, but since people who are familiar with the frosted hybrids feel that yours may indeed be one, I agree that it should be disclosed to any buyers of babies you may sell in the future. I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with hybrids, as long as sellers make sure buyers know what they are getting!

Even if Terri would have kept the snake she mentioned, IMO it would have been fine for her to breed it and sell the offspring as long as she told buyers what her "gut feeling" was about the animal in question. "I bought it as ........, but my experience makes me suspect it could have ........... blood in it." I think there is nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[princess]

I saw the pic and immediately thought 'rat-snake'. Don't get me wrong, he looks lovely and in his own right a very nice looking snake but he's absolutely nothing like any ghost I've ever seen before. Good luck with the clutch, but as said before me, make sure the future owners of the babies know what they have.

 

[Gallagher]

Every corn I see I instantly think "Ratsnake" !!! Because corns are ratsnakes.... lol, just kidden around a little. Grey rat or not that is one awsome snake Luke. Good advice from everyone. I know Luke real well and if there is any chance that a snake is not pure he always lets people know, no worries about misrepresentation from him.

:sidestep:

Don

 

[princess]

hahaha Don, you know what I meant! :crazy02:

 

[Traci1]

Every corn I see I instantly think "Ratsnake" !!! Because corns are ratsnakes.... lol, just kidden around a little.

Don

Good point Don! I think some people are forgetting that fact. I just have been getting the feeling lately that some people react to the thought of rat snake blood in their corns like it's a disease or something. Corns are rat snakes!!! I am all for the seller disclosing what they know, suspect, or have been told about an animal they have...but I can't relate to the negativity I keep sensing as I read posts concerning "other rat snake blood".

Here's something that bugged me a bit...I was at a show last year where someone was selling a bunch of real nice adult candy canes. He was selling them because they were Kathy Love stock, and because he found out there could be emoryi blood in them, he didn't want them any more. I would have bought them if I had the dough...(if I recall the person who did buy them got a heck of a deal)

 

[princess]

Traci, I get your point totally but look at it this way...

Just say I want to buy a german shorthaired pointer with the intention of breeding with it...I go out and buy one...I find out later on that it's 1/4 english shorthaired pointer and 3/4 german shorthaired pointer and the breeder sais to me that it doesn't matter because if you look at their lineage, 150 years ago they were pretty mich the same thing.

Another example might be with horses, what if your pure quater horse turned out to be 1/4 standardbred? You'd be pretty annoyed at the person who sold it to you.

It's like that with cornsnakes as far as I see it, if you want to buy a 'pure bred', you should not be sold a 'part bred'¨, no matter how closely related it might be.

I'm not a snob, I've owned partbred cats, dogs and horses and they are lovely animals, but if I pay for something, I expect it to be just so.

 

[Traci1]

Princess, I did try to compare it in my mind with dogs, cats, horses, etc...but it's not the same with corn snakes as we do not have anything in place like the AKC, CFA, etc (and I know that topic was brought up in at least one lengthy thread). As long as there is no registry, how can anyone ever be 100% sure what they have is "pure".

And like I said before I do agree that all sellers need to disclose fully what it is they are selling...but there is always that chance (without a registry) that they themselves just don't know. They may be a completely honest person, but if they don't know that there is a minute trace of emoryi in an animal they are breeding or selling (just using emoryi as an example) then how can they pass that info along? They can't.

 

[Menhir]

Princess, I did try to compare it in my mind with dogs, cats, horses, etc...but it's not the same with corn snakes as we do not have anything in place like the AKC, CFA, etc (and I know that topic was brought up in at least one lengthy thread). As long as there is no registry, how can anyone ever be 100% sure what they have is "pure".

Thats not the point. We can't be shure, but we can behave in the "best efford" way, that means, being as honest as it's possible for our selfes and react in the smallest amounts of signs against "pureness". For that special case, I think we don't need a registry for avoiding hybridisation.

One thing I'd like to add - adding british XYZ to german XYZ dog is just a cross between breeding lines, like adding a normal Ghost to the Silverqueenline. (I'd also like to know that when I buy such a hatchling!)
BUT, here we have a cross between species, not between line bred animals of one species.

Everyone can decide for himself if he likes such animals or not, I do not and I will not keep them, personal taste, but I simply want to breeder to be honest with me.

Greetings

 

[Traci1]

Thats not the point. We can't be shure, but we can behave in the "best efford" way, that means, being as honest as it's possible for our selfes and react in the smallest amounts of signs against "pureness".

I totally agree, and no where did I say different.

For that special case, I think we don't need a registry for avoiding hybridisation.

Now there is where I disagree, for as honest as we may be...what if we just "don't know". Also, there are always going to be people that are NOT honest.

to try to sum up my feelings...as long as the majority feels that a registry is not worth the time, effort, money, etc...then I think it is silly for anyone to think that there is NO chance that they could end up with an animal that has a hint of another type of rat snake blood in it. The possibility, no matter how small, is always there. If it is not visually identifiable, (which in this case - the frosted ghost - it was) then how would one know otherwise?

All we can do is be as careful and honest as we can with what we do know about the animals we buy, breed, and sell. It's a shame we can't count on everyone to do the same.

 

[Menhir]

I think it is silly for anyone to think that there is NO chance that they could end up with an animal that has a hint of another type of rat snake blood in it.

How do you come to the conclusion, that people do so?
I do not and so I take the risk of being not 100% shure - but can we be shure when we have such a type of registry?
I just ask, I thought that was meant for special linebreeding and morph programs - we can't bring the pure or unpureness back to our lines, if we can't be shure today.

The only way would be to declare a "race" standard and allow special animals to be into that and start with them as the roots of a morph. That is true for horses, dogs, cats.
The problem of hybridisation doesn't come up in cats or dogs - more or less horses, so every point where you see a race popping up is a good point to start.

But thats not possible in the case when hybrids are possible and even not noticable. Thats why I said, that a registry alone doesn't avoid it. If I say, let's start a race/morph with that 20 animals, how can I be shure, that they are all pure? Doesn't matter in dogs, does matter in snakes.
I've said nothing against a registry in common.

 

[Traci1]

How do you come to the conclusion, that people do so?

just from the negativity I've been sensing lately while reading certain posts. I just feel like I am seeing it more often than I used to. Perhaps since that huge Ultra 'thing' came up, I am not sure. I've seen comments like, "i won't buy from anyone who even keeps anything else but pure corns" Well that makes me feel bad because I have other types of snakes besides corns, that doesn't mean I'm crossing them. It just seems like it's coming up more often lately, in a negative light. Sometimes when people respond to a picture saying the animal appears to be a hybrid, the person who posted it reacts like that is the biggest insult anyone could have given them! It doesn't always go that way, but IMO it's been happening more often lately. (not just here either)

 

[Menhir]

Ok, I see your reason.
I notice that massive in german boards. There seem to be some rude "purists" that just accept "normal" looking species - no matter how long they are kept in captivity or how much hets. they have. BUT - morph breeders are money-people that (in)breed sick animals just because they see them as a thing and not as an animal any more.
I have fights with these people regularly to clear such things up and show, that you can breed morphs in a good and healthy way without being better or worse than any other keeper.

I already statet that in another thread what I think about hybrids. So I wont come up with it again, but I will explain the reason why I think that there are so many people react that way.

Think 5-10-15 years back, there where several lines (e.g. Bloods in corns, or melanistics in some thamnophis species) that were sick, really sick. This facts need a little while to get round, but once they are around, every little novice likes such storys and they'll stay for quite a long time.
I remeber, when I started with snakes 2 years ago, the first serious discussion about hybrids came up where not only experts, but also normal keepers and novices took part. So, seems that it got round and many people have an (wrong?right? :shrugs: ) opinion on these snakes and so do I.

 

[princess]

Let me clarify something. I don't think hybrids or crossed are idealogicly wrong or anything, I just think that if one wishes to purchace a purebred snake, then one should have the opportunity to do so with faith in the vendor.

I've actually asked the question myself in this forum, at what point does a snake with a miniscule %age of another snake in it's genetic heritage become classified as a pure corn. I doubt anyone could visually differentiate between a 'pure' corn and one with 1/16th or 1/32th 'other-ratsnake' whereas one that is ½ or 1/4 would be easy enough to spot by anyone who knows what to look for.

I actually would like an albino jungle corn at some point but I would be sure to not include it in any of my corn projects for what my 2c is worth.