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Nose rubbing, possible sneeze --an RI or am I overreacting?

Phruit Dish

Phruit Dish

Bringer of Meeses
I noticed something this morning that concerned me. Birch (my cubed normal yearling) took a long drink of water, moved her jaw around a bit, yaaaaaaaawned wide for me, and proceeded to rub the tip of her nose on her mopani wood, something she normally only does to start her shed. She interacted with me for a bit, then went for another good long drink. She seemed a bit agitated or otherwise bothered, rubbing her nose and her chin on both the wood and on a coil of her own body, moving her mouth in a way that struck me as odd, opening a back corner a touch, sometimes opening all of her mouth a fraction. While I was observing her, she gave me two huge yawns and a lot of smaller openings of her mouth, all of which looked healthy and clear -- no saliva, mucous, or discharge. I did see a drop of fluid on her chin twice, though, once that I'm sure was right after drinking, which she 'wiped' off on the wood...but then continued her nose- and chin-rubbing after that briefly before stopping. She also may have sneezed twice, the sound and movement so tiny I'm honestly not sure that I didn't imagine it.

All of this happened in a very brief period of time, perhaps no more than 30-60 seconds, and has never occurred prior to this moring. She was fed two and a half days ago, so I'm not surprised that she was thirsty. She's not in blue or moving toward that phase presently. Humidity is between 44-47%, cool side temp is between 72-76°F, and warm side temp is between 83-88°F on the glass. She has several inches of eco-earth substrate because she enjoys actively burrowing so much that I say she has an identity crisis, thinking at times that she's a sand boa. I keep a low point of substrate over the center of her UTH in her warm hide; she spends her digesting days in or under that hide for warmth.

I took Birch out to examine her, and her behavior was normal. Lots of tongue flicking, very curious and friendly, active behavior. No more nose rubbing, mouth movement, or sneezing. No drool or discharge. Everything was so normal that I'm thinking I may have just caught an odd moment or imagined things and overreacted.

Can corn snakes occasionally sneeze without it being a symptom of an RI? A bit of dust, maybe? My husband is all but certain I'm overreacting.

Granted, if I hear or see this behavior once more this morning, I'm calling my vet for an emergency visit. I don't at all like that this is happening on a Friday with the weekend looming, as the 'wait-and-see' approach becomes a riskier thing.

Any advice?
 
I haven't had a snake with an RI, knock on wood!!!, but I have observed one. He coughed/sneezed a lot. He also left mucous streaks on the front of his viv.

I recently thought I _did_ have one, though. I had a snake, due to ship out after being sold. She was blue a week ago, and I thought she was going to shed, but she didn't.

At the same time, her rack didn't have heat because the UPS' battery was dead, and the cord couldn't reach the wall outlet. No big deal- it's Florida, my house is 80-84, maybe 70 on a cool night. But we'd had a little cold spell, so I got a different UPS and plugged the rack in.

And went to check on the snake, and when I took her out, she was wheezing and whistling. As I held her, she sneezed. My heart sank- I knew she had an RI, because she'd gotten down to 70. It was all my fault. My vet was closed- Saturday. I notified the buyer. I called my boss and said I'd have to leave work Monday to take her in.

I got my stethoscope and got her out. Her throat was very puffy (happens when blue- people freak out!!). Her lung sounded clear. I began to hope it was just "blue." I got out the other nine snakes and listened to them all- they were all fine.

I checked her again about 15 minutes later- and she had begun to shed. The second the shed was off her, I got her out. No more whistling- she was fine. It was all from being blue.
 
That is an impressive record! (Knocking on wood for good measure....) I've been sitting beside her viv all morning with no further signs, so I'm thinking I may have overreacted after all. Birch has fairly distinctive pre-blue signs (her colors deepen predictably), so I don't think she's quite there yet, though I won't rule the possibility out. I'm thinking I'll continue to keep a close eye on her, perform Orff's Carmina Burana this weekend as planned, and plan on a vet trip if I see anything else of further concern. I may even call the clinic this afternoon just to check on their hours and get a sound referral in the event that I need help after hours. That way, I have a plan in place, just in case, and sound information for future reference as well.
 
Jax whistled periodically for the longest time because he had some retained shed on his nostril that I couldn't get out. After his most recent shed the whistling stopped. Looking into his nose I could see the shed in there.
 
'Dulcissime' can sound ethereal and whistle-like. I'd say as a whole, it's more likely to tempt one into sin...and potential(ly?) infectious aftermath. But not RIs. At least not directly. LOL. (It's my favorite. I'm in heaven!)
 
Cool! I play piano, cello and string bass. Church choir as a kid- but that's as far as my singing went.
 
Nice! With whom do you play now? My cousin is with the Sarasota Orchestra. He's incredibly musically gifted...give him an instrument and he'll master it. Amazing guy.
 
Update: I think I may be approaching the short end of the luck-stick. I took Birch out a little while ago and heard some definite popping/cracking. I heard it in her viv after putting her back as well. I managed to get her to open her mouth for me and it's still clear, no apparent discharge, nothing mucoid in appearance, and no observed mouth-breathing, puffing, or sneezing. I'm thinking it's an early RI. Time for a vet followup. I've never given injections to a snake, but have plenty of experience with sub-q, IM, and IV injections with dogs and cats as a former vet tech, so hopefully that will help in case antibiotics become necessary.

I found the vapo-rub and eucalyptus treatment through a search, and I think I'm going to head out and get that all set up to treat her tonight. If I'm overreacting, sources say this treatment won't hurt her. I've bumped up her thermostat after reading that temporarily increased temps help the immune system fight infection, and am increasing the temp in the room to help with her cool side temp. I've also pulled all but a light dusting of eco earth from her warm side and am monitoring those temps via heat gun.

Her colors are looking quite dark tonight, so I'm back to thinking she may be in pre-blue after all. This morning, she looked post-shed vibrant to me, which was odd, as I've been predicting a shed in the next two weeks or so. I'm confused, but erring on the side of caution and keeping her under close observation. There's still some hope, at least, that this could be a newly observed pre-blue symptom.

I was tempted to try a mouth swab to streak a homemade agar plate and see if anything grows. Minimal clinical value, though it could bear some initial observational merit. But then I questioned the extent of knowledge of the corn snake microbiome, particularly normally-occuring oral microbes, and decided against it. I certainly don't have that info handy.

On a more positive note, I finally figured out how to properly hold Birch's head still in a way that doesn't stress her out. She is such a sweet, docile girl; once I figured it out, she sat patiently while I closely inspected her nostrils and opened her mouth (several times, even). I barely had to touch her at all. I feel better knowing that all of my pets are well-accustomed to handling and can tolerate the gentle restraint and handling required for thorough clinical examination in the event of illness or injury. Less stress on them at a time when stress can be a critical factor...always a good thing, in my experience.

Can anyone chime in regarding home remedies and/or experience with antibiotics in corn snakes? Any info specific to administrating injections is welcome, too.
 
I'm still betting on blue. It wouldn't hurt to bump up her temp a couple degrees, though. Is she out and active, or hiding away?
 
She's fairly quiet in her viv, consistent with pre-shed behavior. Honestly, I would like nothing more than for this to be a shedding thing and not an RI. Either way, I'm learning something new and doing the best I can to keep her comfortable...but I would love to have to admit in a week's time that it was all a false alarm, that she just shed and is doing fine. I'm hoping for that outcome.
 
I agree with Nanci. Bump up the temps a few degrees. Also the less stress the better. Lets hope it is a shed cycle BUT....
Since RI's are a bacterial infection, I would be hesitant to do the vapor treatment especially since your unsure if that's what it is. Humidity + warmth breeds bacteria. Hatchling to yearling corns don't have the lung capacity that an adult has to handle the vapor treatment. IMO.... I know some BP, boa, burm, etc breeders have used it but those hatchlings start 10+ times larger than a corn.
A good way to check for an RI is to do what I show in the pic. You pry the lip down by sliding your thumb under the jaw to open the lip on the side. Since the trachea is located at the front of the mouth, Any fluid from the lungs will show up between the lips and the teeth. As the snake breathes you could see bubbles there also.
It's also a great way to check for anemia caused by mites, tics, etc. by checking the color of the gums :)
 

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I appreciate the input and the visual -- thank you! I have discontinued the vapor therapy, having only done one initial treatment prior to reading your post. You bring up a good point about warm, humid environments and happy, exponentially dividing bacteria. That also, on the other hand, makes me wonder if even a few extra degrees in the viv might also be contraindicated, as that would raise body temperature as well? Her body temp, according to my temp gun, is between 79.8°F and 82°F...not ideal for many of the bacteria that come to mind, but I'd think that those species that inhabit corn snakes, both beneficial and harmful, would be those that thrive in milder temps in the 70s and 80s. What are your thoughts?

I'm not seeing any bubbles or fluid accumulation, nor am I hearing any pops, clicks, or crackles. I haven't heard any since Saturday. Her eyes have clouded over and her colors are dark and dull, but not full blue yet. No mouth opening, odd rubbing, or audible or visual signs of congestion. Her mouth is clear from front to back on both sides with healthy light pink gums. That thumb trick worked nicely, by the way. Very easy.

I found a youtube video that was helpful showing a striped ghost corn with an RI. There, I could hear what a corn snake with an RI would potentially sound like. Here's a link to that: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QkX2csdjPY4. There are plenty more clips worth watching, mostly of pythons and boas, but this was the best corn snake example. (It's old; hopefully that snake is happy and healthy now.) Needless to say, Birch isn't exhibiting any of the symptoms in that video.

I'm thinking that with all the burrowing fun she'd been having in her dry eco earth, she may have been reacting to dust she encountered while tunneling. I'd sneeze too...and then probably dive right back into the fray for more fun. I think for now I'll do a full bedding change after I run my eco earth supply through a sifter to remove the dusty stuff, then continue to monitor her closely until she is through shedding.

Incidentally, does anyone have info on the physiology of the shed cycle? I'm curious to learn all about how they build new scales from the inside.
 
Your welcome :)
Over the years herpetologists have learned through experience that a small raise in temperatures has been beneficial without triggering a worse RI. I believe its the right combination of humidity, temps and stress that causes a bacterial infection to flourish in corns. A bump in temps without increasing the other two factors seems to work well with minor RI's. Reducing humidity and stress would be even more beneficial. I recently used it on 3 newly hatched snakes and all are cured now.
The lip trick has saved me from buying sick snakes numerous times at reptiles shows and I recently showed the trick to an up and coming 16 year old snake enthusiast. He had just bought an adult albino BP. I pulled the lip down and wouldn't you know it, the BP had a RI !!
In general, I'm not a fan of eco-earth because it can harbor bacteria from defecation much easier than aspen. Also kept too moist will promote scale rot.
Glad she is not showing any signs of the RI.
 
I'll be using that trick for years to come, I'm sure. Birch has been fairly patient as my scaly guinea pig. ;)

On the other hand, she gave me some truly dirty looks when I switched out her eco earth for "lizard litter" (ignoring the fact that they feature a corn snake photo on substrate named for a lizard). I figured this would be fairly dust free and I wanted to try the clumping feature out for myself. Birch liked her coconut dirt, even though over half of it was silt at the bottom and had to be vacuumed out of the viv (Shark to the rescue!). I've both heard and seen her digging in the litter, though, so I'm hoping she'll adjust. After lodging an initial complaint in a very visible spot against the glass in the corner opposite her normal bathroom spot, her mood seems to be improving. LOL.

Birch shed unexpectedly the other day. I never saw her go fully blue this cycle...the first time I've missed it. She went dull and dark, exhibiting her normal pre-blue indicators, but not into full blue, like she'd been dunked in Elmer's glue and left to dry. But she did give me a perfect shed from tip to tail...less than 12 hours after the substrate change with a fresh mouse in her belly (D'OH!! Ninja snake ate anyways...little sneak!). I've heard one sneeze (maybe...), but other than that she seems to be a happy, healthy girl (who can probably teach me a thing or two about surviving a zombie apocalypse). So, post-shed, I'm still not 100% sure I'm in the clear, but things look good from here.

The jury's still out on the lizard litter. Birch just popped her head out from some spelunking adventure, though, so we'll see. Seems like it's back to tunneling as usual. ;)
 
Just a thing... my snake started this about 4 months ago... rubbing her nose after eating food.
Her food is usually wet. No need to dry it if she eats it wet. She also rubs it after she drinks. Its just they want the water away from the sides of their mouth.

I mean, for gosh sakes, Shes a lady, of course shes gunna wipe her mouth after opening it wider than her body and swallowing an animal bigger than her head whole.
 
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