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Okeetee crossed with buckskin or Miami

G

Guy123

New member
Hi,

I’m looking to get my first corn snake and would really love and Okeetee or Miami phase, but right now I’m seeing Okeetee crossed with buckskin or Miami phase snakes.

How does that change the look? Does anyone have at picture of adult snakes from these crosses?

Is there a reason why people aren’t breeding Okeetee with Okeetee or Miami with Miami? Wouldn’t that be the best way to create a strong Okeetee or Miami, which is what I’m interested in?

I don’t know anything about breeding or snake genetics so maybe the crosses make sense.

Thank you.
 
I also see Miami crossed with buckskin. How does this impact the appearance? Does anyone have pictures of an adult?
 
There's a lot to unpack in those questions...:)

Okeetee and Miami are localities and/or phases... That is, they are essentially line-bred lineages rather than morphs that result from mutations. That being said, there are of course some genetics (genotype) behind the looks (phenotype) but it is likely polygenic, or probably involves several mutations/genes.

If you breed a Miami with an Okeetee, and you have a nice large clutch of babies, then you will likely get some individuals that strongly resemble Miami, some that strongly resemble Okeetee, and some that are a mix/average of the traits that characterize those lines. I have a female that resulted from a Miami to Okeetee pairing and I would say she is a pretty good average of the two (lighter background color, fairly intense red blotches, and relatively thick borders; see photo).

There are usually lots of "pure" Miami and Okeetee available (check MorphMarket perhaps). Buckskin Okeetee are usually a bit more uncommon, and just have a light tan background color rather than the orange background that is more common.

In my personal opinion, if you want a Buckskin Okeetee you should check with SMR (South Mountain Reptiles), and if you are interested in a Miami, it is hard to beat the ones produced by LBR (Low Belly Reptiles). Hope that helps :)
 

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SnakeSmithS said:
There's a lot to unpack in those questions...:)

Okeetee and Miami are localities and/or phases... That is, they are essentially line-bred lineages rather than morphs that result from mutations. That being said, there are of course some genetics (genotype) behind the looks (phenotype) but it is likely polygenic, or probably involves several mutations/genes.

If you breed a Miami with an Okeetee, and you have a nice large clutch of babies, then you will likely get some individuals that strongly resemble Miami, some that strongly resemble Okeetee, and some that are a mix/average of the traits that characterize those lines. I have a female that resulted from a Miami to Okeetee pairing and I would say she is a pretty good average of the two (lighter background color, fairly intense red blotches, and relatively thick borders; see photo).

There are usually lots of "pure" Miami and Okeetee available (check MorphMarket perhaps). Buckskin Okeetee are usually a bit more uncommon, and just have a light tan background color rather than the orange background that is more common.

In my personal opinion, if you want a Buckskin Okeetee you should check with SMR (South Mountain Reptiles), and if you are interested in a Miami, it is hard to beat the ones produced by LBR (Low Belly Reptiles). Hope that helps :)
Click to expand...

Thank you for the well-informed response. I really appreciate it.

Your snake looks beautiful. How old is it? Do all Okeetee babies have strong black borders when they’re young, or do those thick black borders develop with age?

It’s hard for me to imagine what baby corns will look like as an adult because I only keep garters, and they pretty much look the same as babies and adults.
 
The borders, if anything, 'appear' to thin a bit with age as the markings overall get larger and so the border appears thinner in comparison even though it's actually the same thickness it always was.
Outside of something like a diffused or palmetto, the actual pattern is not going to change in a corn snake but the colors typically will. The babies start off drabber in normals, higher contrast in aneries, paler in amels and butters, etc.
 
Guy123 said:
Hi,

I’m looking to get my first corn snake and would really love and Okeetee or Miami phase, but right now I’m seeing Okeetee crossed with buckskin or Miami phase snakes.

How does that change the look? Does anyone have at picture of adult snakes from these crosses?

Is there a reason why people aren’t breeding Okeetee with Okeetee or Miami with Miami? Wouldn’t that be the best way to create a strong Okeetee or Miami, which is what I’m interested in?

I don’t know anything about breeding or snake genetics so maybe the crosses make sense.

Thank you.
Click to expand...

There are still plenty of people doing Okeetee x Okeetee and miami x miami pairings. Lee Abbot and Howie Sherman probably have some of the best okeetees. As mentioned LBR is the best for Miamis. Even in the Miami Phase there will be a variance. Some will have white or silver background. Some will be orange while others are dark red. Some will be banded or milksnake phase. some have thicker borders while others have thin ones.

One of my pairs for 2024 is a miami okeetee x miami. They basically look the same but one has more red saddles vs the orange saddles of the other.
 
Shiari said:
The borders, if anything, 'appear' to thin a bit with age as the markings overall get larger and so the border appears thinner in comparison even though it's actually the same thickness it always was.
Outside of something like a diffused or palmetto, the actual pattern is not going to change in a corn snake but the colors typically will. The babies start off drabber in normals, higher contrast in aneries, paler in amels and butters, etc.
Click to expand...

Got it. So a baby with thin black borders will have thin black borders as an adult?

A shop in my town is selling yearling Okeetees. I feel like the oranges are pretty bright, but the black borders don't look thicker than normal at all, which makes me wonder if they're just normals. I'll see if I can post a picture later.
 
67temp said:
There are still plenty of people doing Okeetee x Okeetee and miami x miami pairings. Lee Abbot and Howie Sherman probably have some of the best okeetees. As mentioned LBR is the best for Miamis. Even in the Miami Phase there will be a variance. Some will have white or silver background. Some will be orange while others are dark red. Some will be banded or milksnake phase. some have thicker borders while others have thin ones.

One of my pairs for 2024 is a miami okeetee x miami. They basically look the same but one has more red saddles vs the orange saddles of the other.
Click to expand...

Got it. I think my sampling is skewed since I'm looking in the off season and not when most babies are being hatched.

Could you post pics of that pair you're talking about?
 
What do you think about the quality of this yearling Okeetee from a local pet store?
 

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I would not personally call that an okeetee-phase, but it is likely an animal with okeetee-phase influence. The borders *are* thicker than normal, but not that much thicker. As an example, this male I used to have is my personal 'bare minimum' okeetee. I prefer them with thicker borders than this.
 

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Guy123 said:
Got it. I think my sampling is skewed since I'm looking in the off season and not when most babies are being hatched.



Could you post pics of that pair you're talking about?
Click to expand...
The Miami has her head in the middle and the "Miami Okeetee" has his head out to the right.
d036f0d4749cf4520d18d1d1be827d6d.jpg


Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 
Shiari said:
I would not personally call that an okeetee-phase, but it is likely an animal with okeetee-phase influence. The borders *are* thicker than normal, but not that much thicker. As an example, this male I used to have is my personal 'bare minimum' okeetee. I prefer them with thicker borders than this.
Click to expand...

Appreciate your assessment. I agree. I even like normals with normal borders, but it's a little annoying that a shop is trying to sell these as full Okeetees. That's been my concern looking at babies and listings--it seems like there are a lot of mixes out there and it's hard to know what is a mix and what isn't when you're new to corns like me.
 
It can get frustrating at times, especially when others will throw terms okeetee, RO, miami and candy cane on just about anything.

The best I can recommend is talking to a breeder. If a baby catches your eye, ask to see the parents and if they think the baby will turn out to look like them. I sometimes have babies that look nothing like the parents and I have no idea what they will look like as they age. You can also try sending a picture to a breeder and ask if they have anything like that and they might be able to guide you to a particular animal or even another breeder.
 
...and of course the differences between Miami or Okeetee locality versus phase can make things even more confusing. Of course, there is a LOT of variation in basically all wild populations of corns. Add to that the continued refinement of those lines/phases in the hobby over decades, and what was perhaps considered a "solid" Okeetee 15 years ago does not begin to resemble the "extreme" Okeetees being produced by some folks these days. Same with Miami lines... You will not likely ever see a wild-caught Miami that looks anything like an LBR lineage Miami. In the end though, IMO, it is all of that complexity that makes this hobby fun for many of us :)

However, 67temp makes good point about many sellers incorrectly using terms like Okeetee, Miami, Candycane, et al.,
The number of mislabeled corns on MorphMarket at ALL times is simply astonishing! ...be it by ignorance or subterfuge IDK.
 
A lot of sellers label every normal as an okeetee! Either to make it sound fancier than it is or just out of ignorance. It's super annoying.

I think if you're looking for a nice okeetee, skip the pet store and look for a breeder instead.
 
Thank you all for the great insights and suggestions. I actually really love the non-Okeettee normals, too, so I may just go with that.

The shop dropped the prices on these babies, probably because they aren't strong Okeetees. It's a pretty well-regarded shop in our state and displays a lot of their breeders when they're not brumating. (They bred the snake pictured.)
 
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