possible hybrid/inbreeding issues

[wild neonate]

Just curious as I really have no knowledge about breeding, what kinds of problems can occur from trying to cross breed snakes, and what issues can result from heavy corn inbreeding..I'm pretty sure a lot of these morphs weren't spontaneous, and probably had a few generations going back n forth.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Inbreeding is common. I believe it also is called line breeding, if you have a new gene mutation it is necessary to inbreed to produce more of the same morph. As far as heavily inbreeding for several generations, it's a good idea to introduce new blood and outcross the line every so often, because inbreeding narrows the gene pool so if the snake has a 'bad' gene... your chances will increase of getting mutations you don't want as well as those you are aiming for.

 

[wild neonate]

Have you seen those 'pied-sided' bloodreds? I wonder if that is the result of excessive line-breeding? What kind of morphs have been achieved through line-breeding? Is it common for people to breed offspring back to their parents, or do they wait a few generations first? If you guys know any links or books that could shine some light for me, plz post em

 

[wild neonate]

Another thing i was curious about is the appearance of pattern traits in various morphs, is it possible to get undesired patterns from breeding, are some patterns more commonplace in certain morphs than others? I have a type b anery, and it seems to have the zig zag/aztec pattern going on, though it wasnt sold as one. Would it be possible for this snake to pass that trait on to future generations, or is it something more recessive that generally wouldn't show up in offspring? Also, can pattern traits be bred out of lines by introducing more classic/wild corn genes?

 

[scottrussell]

i was always wondering if you had bred a pair of snakes that were brother and sister if no one would want to buy the offspring because they were inbred?

 

[Roy Munson]

i was always wondering if you had bred a pair of snakes that were brother and sister if no one would want to buy the offspring because they were inbred?

How would potential buyers know? Once in a while you see an advertisement that specifies that a pair for sale is unrelated, but normally, the parents' genetic distance from each other is not described.

 

[scottrussell]

i was just wondering if it was a more or less irresponsible thing to do to inbred your snakes one generation and then sell them to people. if i did inbred it would only be for one generation; theres no way i would do it for two fearing i would have some messed up snakes.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I'd definitely tell the buyer if they were F2's and would want to know if I was buying F2's as well.
F2's are the result of breeding F1's (first generation) With the amount of snakes that get wholesaled because they are normals many of the snakes out there are probably inbred, Say a breeder is aiming for a certain morph and crosses a brother and sister, he ends up with a few of the valuable morph and a bunch of normals he can't get a good price for.
He sells the normals as a wholesale lot, they end up in pet stores etc. where they often don't even know the gender!

 

[Serpwidgets]

The pied-sided gene was discovered and/or proven out by inbreeding, but it was not caused by inbreeding.

Mutant genes are not caused by inbreeding. What inbreeding does is bring like genes together, making it more likely that a recessive mutant will be inherited from both parents, and therefore expressed so that we can see it. But it's not like genes are inherited in some different way (or somehow damaged) when related animals are bred together. :wavey:

The biggest problems you'll run into with hybridizing are (depending on the cross) lowered fertility, and a few people who will try to convince you that you are the antichrist. Other than that one of the main things that makes hybrids different is that they and their offspring tend to have a lot more variety than usual, since there is a much greater difference between the two sets of genes they can throw to their offspring.

 

[ultimuttone]

... and a few people who will try to convince you that you are the antichrist.

:roflmao: I'm sorry but that is hilarious...and true!

 

[ultimuttone]

:-offtopic Just another laymans observation.
I am in no way a genetics wiz, but it amazes me that in this day and age people are still under the impression that inbreeding is going to somehow automatically result in one eyed, three legged, retarded offspring. Even limited high school genetics should have squashed that myth. And this is not directed at anyone or meant in a flaming or derogatory way, just an observation.

 

[CaptBogart]

Dog people have done it for years and I think hip problems were the worst effect... my snake doesn't have hips..... :roflmao:

 

[wild neonate]

Inbreeding...prevalence of hemophilia in european royal bloodlines? Im sure theres got to be some conditions or diseases snakes can inherit...high school science classes here consist of making volcanos with play-doh, mixing baking soda with vinegar....not genetics heh heh. Thanks for clarifying that for me though.

 

[Kat]

Inbreeding...prevalence of hemophilia in european royal bloodlines?

Ahh, but if none of the original bloodlines had carried the gene for hemophilia, then none of them would have had hemophilia. Ever*. As Serp said... inbreeding does not introduce new genes (for better or worse). It just makes what IS there more likely to show up.

-Kat

*Well, unless the right random mutation occurred... but that would be extremely rare and totally unrelated to inbreeding or outcrossing.

 

[abell82]

....Mutant genes are not caused by inbreeding. What inbreeding does is bring like genes together, making it more likely that a recessive mutant will be inherited from both parents, and therefore expressed so that we can see it. But it's not like genes are inherited in some different way (or somehow damaged) when related animals are bred together...

So if a gene is damaged in the father/brother instead of burying it as a recessive by breeding it to a new bloodline/genetic line it comes out as a dominant by breeding it to the mother/sister. Which CAN result in kinked spines, poor feeders, aggression, pop eyes,etc. uke01:
It also produces amels, anerys ,snows, etc :grin01:
Is it good :shrugs: Is it bad :shrugs: I wouldn't buy a "line" bred aquarium fish, but I am sure I have bought a "line" bred snake.

 

[scottrussell]

:-offtopic Just another laymans observation.
I am in no way a genetics wiz, but it amazes me that in this day and age people are still under the impression that inbreeding is going to somehow automatically result in one eyed, three legged, retarded offspring. Even limited high school genetics should have squashed that myth. And this is not directed at anyone or meant in a flaming or derogatory way, just an observation.

i'm the person that asked, and i don't take any offense. but i would rather be safe that sorry. i think its a good sign people question before they go ahead and do something possibly irresponsible. but that little bit of info does help.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

i'm the person that asked, and i don't take any offense. but i would rather be safe that sorry. i think its a good sign people question before they go ahead and do something possibly irresponsible. but that little bit of info does help.

The cautious seldom err (I keep getting this message in fortune cookies, must mean something)
Good to see someone trying to learn a little before jumping in head first. I have snakes I know to be related that I may inbreed to prove what genes they carry but I definitely believe in introducing fresh blood. One of the great things about ACR is that once it gets going people will be able to look at their snakes' family tree and know if two snakes are related or not.
As for hybrids, it's not that I think anybody is the antichrist but if a king snake and a corn snake meet in the wild the king is most likely going to eat the corn. So, jungle corns are just not something I would breed or own myself. They are pretty but something about them just feels wrong to me at a gut level :sidestep:

 

[kimbyra]

Howdy!
I know others might not agree, but I don't like crossing species either. I've seen milk/corn/king snake hybrids for sale. Thats just freaky. I am curious how someone got a king snake to mate with, not eat, a milk or a corn. In Petco this past week, I noticed that some uneducated (about snakes - Petco's fault) employee put an albino kingsnake in with a hatchling "albino" (snow) corn. The poor thing was 2/3 swallowed when I saw it. (I told them about it of course.) Poor little snake. Anyway, line breeding may work for a while, but IMHO it probably would bring about undesirable traits, that were recessive, eventually.

 

[Kat]

but IMHO it probably would bring about undesirable traits, that were recessive, eventually.

Only as long as those traits were present in recessive form to begin with. Note that I'm not advocating long term generational inbreeding of cornsnakes (genetic diversity is a good thing), but you aren't going to get a defective snake from parents that don't have the defective genes any more than you'd get a lavender from cornsnake parent generations where neither parent is even het for lavender.

-Kat

 

[princess]

When I've had people coming to me wanting to buy a male and a female I let them know which ones are full sibblings, ½ sibblings and non related so they can make the choice as to what extent they feel comfortable inreeding or line breeding. I only owm one line of butter as it's relatively new around here. My female amel het caramel was mated to her butter brother (owned by my friend) and I kept 1.1 butters from that clutch. The male will go back with his mum but the female will not go with her brother, rather she will go into another project. I intend to pick up a caramel het amel or butter male in the next year or so and then sell the butter male. He's not a long term sollution but he's just fine for now. This is as much as I'd inbreed.

I bought a pair of ghosts last year that I know are quite unrelated. Whilst not carrying the diffused gene the male is very diffused looking and colour free whereas the female has deffinate markings and a real apricot-brown cast to her. I feel more comfortable breeding this pair than I do my pair of snows which are sibblings from different years but I now their parents are from different sources, so the depth of the inbreeding there isn't as much as my butters.