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Power feeding

Honestly, don't put all your faith in the "rule of 3" thingy. Sexual maturity in a snake has little to nothing to do with age. It's all relevant to size.

But that doesn't mean over feeding for the sake of breeding. That is just irresponsible!

Wayne
 
Yes, as I said I am a bearded dragon breeder and they require a large tank. Um, I would think when they reach 2 feet I will put them in there. I just got to figure out how to divide it since it's melamine, also has sliding glass doors and is really nice.
 
medusacoils said:
Honestly, don't put all your faith in the "rule of 3" thingy. Sexual maturity in a snake has little to nothing to do with age. It's all relevant to size.

But that doesn't mean over feeding for the sake of breeding. That is just irresponsible!
Click to expand...

I guess I am advocating for safety for the snakes. For hobby breeders, what's the downside in waiting until 3 years as well as 3 feet & 300 gms? I'd rather skip that one clutch to reduce the risk to the snake, especially if female. For the boys, if they are willing, the only risk I can think of is that he may not be fertile even though he's willing.

Mind you, if Kathy Love, or Don Soderberg, or Rich Zuchowski, or Jeff Mohr, or Chuck Pritzel, or lots of other really knowledgeable people, looks at a snake & thinks "ready to breed" they know profoundly more than me, so I wouldn't advocate for them to wait for that rule of 3s. They KNOW what they are doing. Heck, their left pinkie fingers know more about cornsnake breeding than I do.

I just think the rule of 3s is really good for people who are new to breeding cornsnakes. It keeps our snakes safe while we gain experience.
 
wstphal said:
I guess I am advocating for safety for the snakes. For hobby breeders, what's the downside in waiting until 3 years as well as 3 feet & 300 gms? I'd rather skip that one clutch to reduce the risk to the snake, especially if female. For the boys, if they are willing, the only risk I can think of is that he may not be fertile even though he's willing.

Mind you, if Kathy Love, or Don Soderberg, or Rich Zuchowski, or Jeff Mohr, or Chuck Pritzel, or lots of other really knowledgeable people, looks at a snake & thinks "ready to breed" they know profoundly more than me, so I wouldn't advocate for them to wait for that rule of 3s. They KNOW what they are doing. Heck, their left pinkie fingers know more about cornsnake breeding than I do.

I just think the rule of 3s is really good for people who are new to breeding cornsnakes. It keeps our snakes safe while we gain experience.
Click to expand...

I agree. Rushing them to get them to breeding size is a recipe for an unhealthy snake. Not to mention, who healthy can the babies be, if they come from a female that's not healthy/mature enough to have babies?
 
wstphal said:
I guess I am advocating for safety for the snakes. For hobby breeders, what's the downside in waiting until 3 years as well as 3 feet & 300 gms? I'd rather skip that one clutch to reduce the risk to the snake, especially if female. For the boys, if they are willing, the only risk I can think of is that he may not be fertile even though he's willing.

Mind you, if Kathy Love, or Don Soderberg, or Rich Zuchowski, or Jeff Mohr, or Chuck Pritzel, or lots of other really knowledgeable people, looks at a snake & thinks "ready to breed" they know profoundly more than me, so I wouldn't advocate for them to wait for that rule of 3s. They KNOW what they are doing. Heck, their left pinkie fingers know more about cornsnake breeding than I do.

I just think the rule of 3s is really good for people who are new to breeding cornsnakes. It keeps our snakes safe while we gain experience.
Click to expand...

Listen, I'm not saying that anyone should NOT advocate for safety. I'm just saying that I have been schooled to know that the "rules of 3" don't hold water. One of the people you mentioned in the paragraph that I highlighted red was my teacher.

I heard that message LOUD AND CLEAR!! ;)

K :cheers:

Wayne
 
nwheather said:
Not to mention, who healthy can the babies be, if they come from a female that's not healthy/mature enough to have babies?
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That's a point I hadn't even thought about! In mammals it is VERY clearly true. I don't know about egglaying reptiles, though. If the female can't put enough yolk together, that's a recipe for a puny sickly hatchling, so that could be one way that the health of the female impacts the hatchling. The other thing I can think of is that if she doesn't have adequate calcium reserves, the eggs may be too soft and then the hatchling might not make it at all. So yeah, I can think of some ways that eggs from an immature cornsnake might produce unhealthy hatchlings. Someone with a ton of experience could tell us for sure, so let's hope they come to this thread!
 
medusacoils said:
Listen, I'm not saying that anyone should NOT advocate for safety. I'm just saying that I have been schooled to know that the "rules of 3" don't hold water. One of the people you mentioned in the paragraph that I highlighted red was my teacher.

I heard that message LOUD AND CLEAR!! ;)

K :cheers:

Wayne
Click to expand...
I'm sure everyone knows that it's not an exact science and there are always oddballs who are ready and rarin at 2 or whenever, but the point I believe Betsy is making, and she can correct if I'm wrong, is that it's good practice for someone who is not experienced in breeding to follow the rule of 3's.

It's great that you guys are trying to give this kid the right information, but let's be honest here... he came in and said "HEY! This is what I'm doing. I know you guys don't agree with it, but guess what, you're WRONG. Now respond to me." I don't think your information is going to stick very fast to him when it's clear he knows possible repercussions and has simply decided to ignore them in favor of his own (poorly researched) ideas. But this thread will have use for other newbies who are unsure of what could happen if they overfeed their snake, I guess.:shrugs:

I feel sorry for any animal in the possession of someone who would rather do as they please over listening to the advice of established breeders and owners.
 
medusacoils said:
Listen, I'm not saying that anyone should NOT advocate for safety. I'm just saying that I have been schooled to know that the "rules of 3" don't hold water. One of the people you mentioned in the paragraph that I highlighted red was my teacher.

I heard that message LOUD AND CLEAR!! ;)

K :cheers:
Click to expand...

Well, you're working with more info than most of us new folks then, and that's cool. I suspected that for more experienced people the rule of 3 was not useful. My thinking is it's useful for people like me and the OP. If you've got somebody who can help you evaluate your snakes at a higher level of expertise, use that expertise! It means you can do things the way the "big guys" do while still keeping your snakes safe. I'm a little jealous!
 
thread-delivers.jpg
 
Thank you Lexie and Joe and bkelm. And I know that you know how and why I appreciate the early calls.
 
I think there are a couple things that need a little adjustment to your feeding schedule. First I would cut back the room temperature in the room to about 75 degrees and set up a proper temperature gradient from one end to the tank to the other. Your room is so warm that the snakes will be digesting faster than than they grow.

I would cut back to feeding every 4 to 5 days and give a larger meal. The important thing is to get them off of pinkies and fuzzies. They will grow much faster on hoppers and small adult mice.

Male snakes can breed at a smaller size. I have had 26"-30" males father good sized clutches of perfectly fine young. They are at their best if they are not over weight. After they reach 36" all they need is a mouse or two every one to two weeks.

Females should be a little bigger and want to have a little fat coming out of brumation. They will also recover much faster after egg laying. Most females will usually want more food most of the year.

It boils down to common sense and paying attention to the snakes needs as every snakes behaves and grows differently.
 
Teddy Roosevelt said:
I'm sure everyone knows that it's not an exact science and there are always oddballs who are ready and rarin at 2 or whenever, but the point I believe Betsy is making, and she can correct if I'm wrong, is that it's good practice for someone who is not experienced in breeding to follow the rule of 3's.

It's great that you guys are trying to give this kid the right information, but let's be honest here... he came in and said "HEY! This is what I'm doing. I know you guys don't agree with it, but guess what, you're WRONG. Now respond to me." I don't think your information is going to stick very fast to him when it's clear he knows possible repercussions and has simply decided to ignore them in favor of his own (poorly researched) ideas. But this thread will have use for other newbies who are unsure of what could happen if they overfeed their snake, I guess.:shrugs:

I feel sorry for any animal in the possession of someone who would rather do as they please over listening to the advice of established breeders and owners.
Click to expand...

How could the "Rules of Three" be good practice, if it's wrong?? Now, I'm not saying it's wrong like feeding a pinkie a day, feeding frozen pinkies or whatever. I'm just saying that it's a catchy phrase and that is it.

It's been put to me this way. What does a person do that has a snake that never reaches 3 feet or 300 grams? (I'm not mentioning age because that has nothing to do with breeding.) Does that mean that their snake can't or should never be bred?

What a person needs to do is evaluate each snake individually. Not group them into some category because it sounds good. That is not a safe practice. Some 300 gram snakes are not safe to breed. They need a good diet and muscle tone to be ready. You need to know your snake. A female can be safely bred at 19 months. Males as early as 9 months. As long as they are of a good size, conditioned and ready.

As I have mentioned before, I'm not saying that people should be putting breeding above the safety of the animal. I'm saying that you need to evaluate each animal individually.

Wayne
 
wstphal said:
That's a point I hadn't even thought about! In mammals it is VERY clearly true. I don't know about egglaying reptiles, though. If the female can't put enough yolk together, that's a recipe for a puny sickly hatchling, so that could be one way that the health of the female impacts the hatchling. The other thing I can think of is that if she doesn't have adequate calcium reserves, the eggs may be too soft and then the hatchling might not make it at all. So yeah, I can think of some ways that eggs from an immature cornsnake might produce unhealthy hatchlings. Someone with a ton of experience could tell us for sure, so let's hope they come to this thread!
Click to expand...

A female corn isn't going to breed unless it's ready. You cannot compare mammals to reptiles. They have totally different reproductive cycles and systems. Age plays a very tiny part in their cycle. An immature corn snake will probably not breed.

I can't hold a candle to the knowledge that a person like Don Soderberg has. I can only regurgitate the information that was passed onto me. I once thought like you and so many others do. I would get into debates regarding breeding as it relates to size and age until I was corrected by a person that doesn't think that they are right, but knows it. With Absolution!

So, I'm not trying to be rude. Far from it. I'm just trying to help some people understand what little I know. It's not about categorizing, it's about evaluating and understanding. To categorize is dangerous.

Wayne
 
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