Problems with hatchlings that have stripe genes

[limey]

Just wondering if anyone else out there has had problems with offspring from strippy parents (both or one). As i have had a clutch of 22 hatch and only about 10 have fed , the others dispite all atempts refuse to eat (i am currently tryin the cool them down for a couple of weeks method) They have so far refused to eat pinks /live and dead/ pinks scented with lizard/toad/frog/rabbit, headless pinks / pink bodies and even the time honoured tradition of a car drive didnt work (although it did work on two of my miamis

So i was realy just wondering about other peoples experaince with corns wiht the stripe gene
Thanks

 

[Chip]

you could try "tease-feeding"

hold the pink with forceps and get the snake to strike it out of defense. Honestly, I have only had this method work a time or two, but it's worth a shot.

What this about a car drive?!?

 

[Iris]

Re: you could try "tease-feeding"

What this about a car drive?!?

I have read about some people who as a last attempt take their stubborn feeders on a drive and they actually do eat.
I've never had to try it before, but I suppose I'd try anything if I were trying to get hatchlings to eat.

 

[limey]

The car journey does seem to work well , however it does seem to have the side effect that once they have eaten any extra stress can make the little guys regurg and it by no means gets them to eat aftre that (usually another car drive) and the longer the car drive the better i would say it needs to be a good 30 mins plus then just pop them in a deli cup and cross your fingers - try both live and dead pinks

 

[moreptiles]

"I'm sorry, I can't come to the phone right now, because I'm taking my new snake on a car ride"

I'm not questioning whether this works, but it sure seems that we go to a lot of extremes to get a snake to eat.

Oops, I gotta go catch some crickets to feed the lizard I keep to rub the pinkies on in case I have a hatchling that won't eat anything else.
Mark

 

[limey]

sounds like you dont agree with perservering wiht the difficult ones - in some ways i agree - if they die they will be out of the gene poll hence a stronger gene pool and easier snakes to feed and rear in the future - however one day you'll hatch a snake you want to keep and will need to go to soome lengths to keep alive - after all if people didnt i dont think we would have blood reds etc and to add to that we as breeders have a responsibility to provide suitable housing and food items to the animals we breed. After all the corn snake hatchlings didnt "want" to be captive bred they had no choice so we are responsible. Plus the practice wiht the "not so important" hatchlings make success with others all the more easy. Its really about futhering herps as a whole

 

[CAV]

sounds like you dont agree with perservering wiht the difficult ones - in some ways i agree - if they die they will be out of the gene poll hence a stronger gene pool and easier snakes to feed and rear in the future

That is easy to say, unless you have a >$200 corn morph that you have painstakingly raised for months or even years!

 

[moreptiles]

My issue here is with feeding hatchlings that you are planning to sell. I have been burned too many times by people selling hatchlings that are poor eaters. Didt they just go to all extremes to get to get that snake to eat? Then I end up with a snake that will eat occasionally, or only eat if I go to all of these ridiculous extremes. It's like people are so worried that they make every possible penny out of their clutch that they don't really care what the buyers will go through.

I would rather have a snake die than to sell it to someone and knowingly make them go through the headache of having a problem feeder. There are the people that sell snakes that they know are non feeders at a show and lie to you and tell you they are great feeders. Ever run into this type?

 

[CornCrazy]

I personally try really hard to get any non-feeders eating. I sell them, as well. The only thing is, I refuse to sell any non-feeders until they have started feeding on their own (in the normal way - no car drives or anything), and have fed at least 8 times this way. I also keep complete records on them, and I let the buyer know that the snakes started out as difficult feeders. Typically, I do not make any money on the non-feeders because I end up feeding them so much, and I also spend a lot of time on them. If I am not successful with them, then I adopt them out for someone else to try...

 

[Chip]

I, too have bought my share

so I don't sell anything unless it's eaten it's first three meals with no problems. One regurge, one skipped feeding, and it's "off the shelf" until things straighten out. If things are really tough going, I put the little snakes in the freezer. Actually, I MAY try for months with a pinkie pump, etc, if the specimen is special. Still, I hate to breed that animal if it didn't make a 100% recovery on it's own.
So I'll walk the line on this one. In a perfect world, if they gave a bit of problem feeding, they'd be frozen right away. No bad genes to pass on, fewer problems for future generations. But sometimes you just gotta try everything in the book!

 

[Alicia]

Oops, I gotta go catch some crickets to feed the lizard I keep to rub the pinkies on in case I have a hatchling that won't eat anything else.

Well, actually I get the crickets from the pet store

I think many of us have been burned by sellers that are less then forthcoming about how well the animal eats

I don't believe that the way an animal starts out feeding is necessarily an indication of how they will feed as an adult. I have some that started out slow but never miss a meal now.

As far as taking extreme measures to get them eating, I agree to a point. Some of these kids just aren't ment to make it. I have to say that I don't think lizard scenting is an extreme measure. Corn snakes eat lizards, it's a normal source of food for them. Some Miamis will only eat lizards or lizard scented pinks as their first meals. I don't think I want to send them to the freezer just because they won't eat a plain pinkie as their first meal

 

[Taceas]

I want to know..

When do you consider a problem feeder, a problem feeder? Is there a set point that you label them and either discontinue that line, or give up?

Right now I've got a clutch of 13 motley-stripes. So far 6 have accepted a f/t pink as their first meal 9 days after hatching, the other 7 completely ignored the food. Do I consider them problem feeders if they ignore their first meal?

It seems people have varying degrees of patience when it comes to assisting a hatchling to live. Some will spend all of their time encouraging and trying every trick in the book to get one to thrive, others seeing the logic in Nature's way, speeds up the end result of Nature and puts that animal down. I say, if I were a snake, I'd rather start out in someone's house who's willing to take the time.

I'm not saying either way is correct, or wrong. I agree with the assumption that these are our creations, they live in our house and we feed them. Not to sound high and mighty, but we play God in our house everyday with our pets.

I agree with both camps on this, thus by these being in our care in captivity that we should give them every chance we can, obviously Nature wouldn't be so forgiving. And I also agree to the point that sometimes it's best to let a stubborn feeder pass on.

I do a similiar thing everyday on deciding who stays and who "leaves" in my rodent colony. I don't want to perpetuate a bad breeding line, or a line in which the females eat their young, and I certainly don't abide a vicious rodent who won't hesitate to bite me.

I also agree that if we just let the stubborn ones get whats coming to them in Nature, we probably wouldn't have morphs such as bloodreds, butters, miamis, etc. I myself own one of Rich's "problem feeders". I asked him specially for one, because A) I can't afford a "good" one of that morph most of the time and B) I know it'd help those great feeders get started and out the door by taking his time away from the problem ones. In all honesty, the problem feeder gave me one instance of a problem when I first got him: he wanted his mice to smell like anoles. I obliged him on this once, and then went to a rodent scented pink the next meal, and he took it. Sometimes I think it all has to do with a change of scenery, and possibly a bumpy ride. Although I can't imagine what role a bumpy ride would be in Nature.

So anyway, I'm not saying any one idea on the issue is wrong or right, we each do our own things differently.

As for the selling of non-feeding or problem feeding animals...I don't mind as long as the consumer knows what they're getting into. If they don't mind that the animal has a history of being stubborn, then ok, let em have it. But it's the knowingly selling a non-feeder as a "great feeder" is what I have a problem with. It's like my other hobby of Indian artifacts. There are some people who are completely motivated by the dollars and won't hesitate to sell you authentic or fake, so long as they get their money. So you always have to be on the look out that that rock, may not be real. And on the same hand, that snake may not be all of what it is. Thankfully, I've never dealt with anyone like that. Most of the snakes I've bought the breeders told me straight up front what faults the animals had, and I accepted that. You can't conduct people's business for them, but it's up to those of us who are honest in our dealings to set the pace for the reptile industry. There are always going to be a few bad apples in every barrel, there's no getting around that.

As for me, since this is my first clutch and babies ever..I'm going to give them every chance to make it. When I get up to the point of having hundreds of hatchlings to contend with, maybe I can afford to be a little less caring. =)

 

[limey]

Cav - although i said i agree with letting the stubbon feeders to there own fate i dont just give up on them i in fact have 7 hatchlings (thatnk god its not more) who i am keeping alive by force feeding - not a pleasent or easy practice ( and one that certainly dictates a problem feeder), and b4 i get told i shoudl nt be selling them i am not uuntil they have taken at least 3-5 meals on there own no "tricks" involved.

And heres a trick for force feeding that either doesnt get used (for a reason thatisnt apparent to me) or no-bodies talking about it (at least i havent seen it )
The problems i have encountered with force feeding are
1. the force required to open the little guys mouth on some occasions can case damage
2. The food item has to be small and it can be tricky (to say the least) to get down there mouths
3.because the food item is small it doesnt always stimulate the swallow reflex the reult is a messy reguratate - the alternative is to massage the small food itme to roughly where you think the stomach is (not actually that hard after a few goes)

The easiest solution (although a bit nasty for the faint hearted belive it or not is to remove a mouses hind leg just above the knee (obvously on a dead mouse) the benefit of this is
1. the leg is very easy to manipulate (due to it having a bone in it)into the baby snakes mouth very quickly (thus reducing stress), theres no need for extra pushing with anohter object to get the food item into the mouth hence reduced damage chance
2. the mouse leg is also a fair sized meal it stimulates the swallowing reflex theres no guessing where the stomach is and the snake vritually always swallows by itself - i have very very few reguretates
the leg also has a fair amount of calcuim in it i have honestly had non feeders (for a month or two) fed this way then star taking pinks catch up and over take the hatclings that have always fed (i have noticed in other threads that the earlier you get your babies to fluffs the faster they grow - ther must be link between the amount of calcuim avalible)
3. as i have said its quick so it reduces stress

the are obvoiusly problems i.e buying mice if you dont have adults and then there is the nutritional vaule of a mouse leg - like i have said some hatchlings seem to grow incredibly fast on it (i even have a snake which will willing take legs over pinks) but i cant help but wonder if there is to much calcuim and not enough vits/minerals (you can however put them in the drinking water ).

I wouldnt mind some feed back on this method what do you guys think ?

 

[Alicia]

limey

I think that if feeding them legs works then it's a great idea I have had that method recommended but have not had to use it. I'm not faint hearted but if I can get by without carving up the mouse all the better.......LOL

Methods that are tried and work, as yours does, are always worth mentioning. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Chip]

CULLING!

In my humble opinion, far to few of us are willing to do it. Since this is a cornsnake site, I'll stick to this species.
It is a common species, and very easy to breed. Corns are an obvious "starting place" for people interested in breeding reptiles. Unfortunately, too many people who own them breed them just because they can and produce below-average specimens or neddlessly breed siblings. I'll let my friend Clay Davenport's opinion on the matter (which I agree with fully) follow.
"I realize that the intentional killing of certain offspring is distasteful to some, and will be considered cruel by many. I am not writing this however to cater to the warm and fuzzy opinions of many today who claim the title of "herper" just because they keep a few reptilian pets.
Many people hold an inherent sympathy for the weak, or just the lives of the less desireable. There is little room for this shortsighted approach.
Nature itself is harsh and unforgiving in its methods and in what individuals are allowed to reproduce. We too must become strict in our standards, but we have to use different criteria.

That brings us to the question of how will the culling of offspring be accomplished? The answer will vary depending on the species involved. The degree of culling must be based on the relative abundance of a species as captive born. The more common a species, the more strict the criteria should be. Species which remain rarely bred may be limited to the culling of only deformed or otherwise defective offspring, while the most common species should be culled using much broader standards.

First and foremost, any offspring with physical deformities should be culled. Snakes born with one eye, or a spinal kink etc should not be sold. Likewise, lizards born with turned feet or deformed limbs should never leave your possesion.
Even though in many cases these conditions are not genetic, there is simply no reason to add less than perfect specimens to an already saturated market. It is all the more applicable if the condition is genetic, or suspected to be so. These animals should never be allowed to reproduce.
The only time that this standard could be relaxed would be when it concerns a species which is very limited in availability, and the specimen only has a minor nongenetic blemish but is still capable of needed reproduction.
Note I said species, not morph. Just because a morph is rare (and thereby commanding the coveted higher price tag), is no excuse to sell deformed specimens. Case in point, one eyed albino boas. There exists the possibility that this condition is a genetic defect resulting from inbreeding. When these snakes were still bringing several thousand dollars, a grand or two was deducted from the price of the one eyed individuals and they were sold regardless. This was greed, no more, no less.

A very important part of a breeding project that is often overlooked is to have a plan. Before you start to breed a species you need a goal, a result you are aiming for, a set of standards you want to meet.
The process begins of course with the careful selection of your founding stock. Do not be in a hurry to get your group together. Know what you are looking for and do not let the price figure in too heavily. Never settle for lower quality in order to save money. The founding stock is the basis of the entire project, and if you cut corners at the beginning, you are crippling your own efforts.
Do not buy siblings with the intention of breeding them to each other. There is nothing wrong with buying siblings, but also buy another pair form a seperate bloodline and cross the pairs.

Now the main issue, you've hatched eggs, what do you cull? This is where it gets subjective. With all the possible breeding programs, there is no one answer. Alot will depend on the goals you established earlier.
Generally speaking, any offspring which are not at least as high quality as the parents are subject to culling. There is no reason to step backward. Anything involving the color or pattern traits will largely depend on the tastes of the breeder and his level of dedication to the perfection of the blood line.

Other characteristics however, should be held to stricter standards. For instance if you are breeding mountain kingsnakes or gray bands you will have some problem feeders. If, after a reasonable amount of time, you have some specimens that refuse to eat mice devoid of any manipulation, they should be culled. Nonfeeders should not be sold in the first place, even at discounted prices, and those that remain so should be removed from the gene pool. This will strengthen the captive lineages."

And in my personel practice, regurgers get the freeze much sooner than poor feeders, simply because they are much quicker to lose weight. I won't force feed ANY hatchling corn. I'll use "tricks" but not force...