• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Snakes in Tubs (SPCA related)

lumene

rebuilding my life
Hey guys,
This is just a quickie, mostly for those who keep their snakes in tubs and etc.

Short story:I moved, and my former landlady didn't like it. So she called the spca about how I was breeding rats in her garage, and that I had snakes in tubs (12 and 27qt tubs) and they were "in distress, lacking natural sunlight, and environmental stimulation". The SPCA has not left me alone since, and they are putting together a search warrant to seize my animals.

So, opinions? Advice? I'm at work, but I'll leave my computer on.
 
Oh man, that sucks. I don't know about Canada, but if the ASPCA is called they will come over, check over all your animals and their habitats, and see that they are well taken care of and leave you alone.

Did they mention the seizure or did your ex-landlady? Take pictures as soon as you get home of the animals in their enclosures. This will help, especially if they really do plan on seizing the animals.

Best of luck, and keep us updated!
 
You might want to also contact your local law enforcement and see if they have any advice or information- Speak to an actual officer, not some admin person.

Also, if you can gather information off the internet from other breeders/keepers/specialists about how they generally keep their snakes in large tubs as opposed to tanks, any paperwork or research you find could also aid you- I definitely agree that taking pictures and dating them is a priority, and take pictures of the snakes individually, their bellies, too.

Also take photos of the rats you have, so they can see that while they are being bred for food, they are still being taken care of.

I work as a 911 Law Enforcement dispatcher, and I come across a lot of people on the phone who didn't take photos or keep proper documentation on their items, pets, work they had done to their house, car, whatever the case may be, and it came back to bite them. If there's one thing I've learned from 4 years in this job- CYA CYA CYA CYA- Cover Your Ass- Make sure you're doing the right thing, have proper paperwork and documentation, photos and whatever else you need.
 
I'd say it couldn't hurt to put together any information you can on correct and humane snake care, as well as many people have blurbs on their websites about keeping snakes in tubs. Print them all out (one copy for you, one for them), put it in a folder, and give it to them. Maybe also get your vet involved. Show that you know your stuff and have done your homework, and have taken good care of them by these standards. I'm no lawyer, but I would think they'd have a hard time proving their case since this is how pretty much every major breeder keeps their snakes, to the best of my knowledge.

Doesn't mean they won't harrass and intimidate you to the best of their abilities, and it might fall to you to prove your innocence rather than to them to prove your guilt.
 
This has been ongoing all summer.

1. A number of my snakes are rescues, and not in ideal body condition, but I found correspondence between myself and owners to prove that their condition was described when I took them on. I contacted old vets and asked them for paperwork too.

2. Breeders are not 'experts' I've been told. Breeders who keep a number of animals in tub are no better than puppy mills- their words. They brought in a zoologist (who made a six enclosure display case for me a few years ago, and he said IT WASN'T UP TO CODE!)
He also did asked me when my crested geckos would grow their tails back... -_- "Expert?"

3. Trying to explain that I have a physical disability and tub are easier to move than a 30gal tank, is not computing.

4. When I asked their knowledge of reptiles, they admitted to having none. Zero. they have not had a reptile case like mine in my area. I sent them care sheets, breeder information, rescues that I know and am affiliated with. They have wooden ears.
 
So I guess the question is, what do they consider an "expert" and is there any way you could get one to write a letter for you or provide you with their opinion of what correct snake care is?
 
Is it the B.C. SPCA that's questioning you or is it an officer with Fish & Wildlife ?

Have you reviewed BC's Controlled Alien Species Regulations to make sure your in compliance ? http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/94_2009#Schedule1

I couldn't find any regulations on required housing and environment for controlled alien species. If this is what they're objecting too then ask them to produce them.

The BC SPCA (according to their website) is 100% against keeping any and all exotics. There will be NO pleasing them.
 
An expert is a zoologist or veterinarian. And the best reptile vet in my province bats for their team.

But I just got a call from a breeder with world wide connections. So we`ll see what happens.
 
That's terrible! Have you tried contacting the media? I'm just thinking that maybe if you could get a media story showing how well you care for your animals and with statements from the experts you have, the public pressure might get the SPCA to back off, especially with the "SPCA harassing a reptile rescuer" angle. I don't know, just a thought.
 
I didn't see the CAS comment before. Its the SPCA.

I have one CAS and Fish and Wildlife has no complaints about my permit.
 
It doesn't appear the SPCA works under any authority from F&W based on both of their websites.
If SPCA is showing up without a F&W officer I would not give them access or any more info.
Since you are compliant with CAS, call F&W and tell them your being harassed by the SPCA if you feel they would have a compassionate ear to your plight.
I would find legal guidance from someone like Legal Services Society. link -> http://www.lss.bc.ca/
 
If I could make a suggestion, you could always ask for help from us to bombard them with emails (polite ones) describing that snakes kept in tubs are properly cared for and perfectly happy. Since they admit to having no expertise in the area, perhaps a resounding (again, polite) demonstration of expertise from a large number of people could help. Do you have a contact email for someone over there, preferably someone in charge of the investigation?
 
I do have the contact email for the two officers involved. You're welcome to it.

I will also have pictures of my setups up tomorrow if you'd like to view them. I have only recently found a supplier on my island for heat tape, so I was using heat wire and will be switching it out at the end of the month, but otherwise I use aspen, paper towel or eco earth depending on the species. I was breeding my own rats are the start of this investigation, but I switched to a supplier.
 
I sent this message. Anyone else is free to copy any portion of it that they like for their own use. Good luck arguing your case, hopefully they will come around.

Hello. My name is Chris Guarino, and I am avid reptile breeder and keeper with over 20 years of experience.

I would like to start by thanking you folks for all of the hard work that you do making sure that animals are kept safe and healthy in your jurisdiction. It is important work that you do for a noble cause.

That being said, it has come to my attention that you may have some misinformation about the proper care and housing of snakes. For that reason, I would like to give you a brief overview of the subject. Let me start by saying that I in no way approve of the mistreatment of any animal for any reason, and consider every one of my animals to be equally deserving of my responsibility and proper care as my own children. The information that I give you below is the result of over a decade of experience keeping, breeding, and caring for dozens of species of snakes.

There are many different species of snake, and many species, and even individuals within a species, will have different requirements and preferences. However, as a rule, Snakes are very different from many other animals in their housing needs. When it comes to things like light and space, they are actually quite averse to an overabundance of these things. Where a dog or cat will be happier with acres upon acres of space, and lots of bright light, a snake will be made to feel insecure and anxious by the same. Snakes are unlike dogs, cats, birds, and even many other reptiles, like turtles and lizards. They have evolved over time to be animals largely specialized to hide in small, dark places. They feel most secure and calm when they are in the dark, and often undergo serious stress reactions when they feel exposed in too much space or light.

For this reason, many people who keep snakes choose to keep them in tubs. The tubs are opaque, which helps the snake feel hidden, and are often shorter in height, which helps the snake feel secure. There is such a thing as too small a tub, but it is often considerably less than you would expect. For instance, a 4 or 5 foot corn snake can be kept quite happily in a 36 inch by 18 inch tub. By contrast, I once had a 5 foot Honduran Milk Snake that was having serious stress issues in a 36x18, and when I moved her to a 24x12, she finally began to recover. The most important need that space serves is to provide a proper temperature gradient for the snake to thermoregulate its body. As long as the enclosure is large enough for this gradient, the snake is often quite happy.

Many people choose to keep their animals in larger, glass enclosures. This is largely for display purposes, and in both my own personal experience, and in the sharing of information with other dedicated enthusiasts, it is these snakes that are most likely to have issues with stress. The glass walls and open space are actually more likely to make the animal stressed, as they cause it to feel exposed to potential predators. Oftentimes, people who keep their animals in large, display-type enclosures need to go to extra lengths to compensate, like adding a deep layer of bedding for the animal to burrow in, or adding multiple hides of varying sizes to which the snake can retreat.
In all the time I have spent keeping snakes, I have never had an issue with an enclosure being too small. Often, the greatest challenge with snakes being too large for an enclosure is the increase in cleaning and maintenance, which is what often precipitates the move to a larger cage, not the animal’s own preferences.

Another major difference between snakes and some other animals is their brains. Snakes do not require a lot of the things that, say, a dog might like. For instance, they do not get much out of human interaction. While many snakes are calm and inquisitive, I have never seen a snake that truly sought out attention from a human being. They also do not like to interact with toys, obstacle courses, or other “mental stimulation” such as a mammal or bird would like to do. Snakes are mostly concerned with having their needs met, and then being left to enjoy their satisfaction. A snake that is well fed, given fresh water, kept in a clean enclosure, and left alone, is the happiest snake. Changing the snake’s environment, such as to add a new toy, or something new to climb on, is more likely to cause stress to the animal than it is to provide any sort of entertainment. In the best case scenario, the snake would often ignore the change completely.

In conclusion, while I know it may sound counterintuitive for anyone who has a background in other animals, snakes actually are perfectly happy to be kept in tubs, as long as the tubs are clean, have a proper temperature gradient, and have an ample supply of fresh water. Please feel free to contact me if you have any other questions. Thank you for your time, and especially for your service.
 
Back
Top