So let me get this straight.

[lonewulf]

Looking at the answer I got before ..

If I have a Ghost Male
and a Amel het for ghost

I should produce some ghosts ?

I tried using a corn program to help with what I will get but it does not have the option for het ghost ..

is there a good program to help figure all of this stuff out ?

and am I right about that I will produce some ghosts from this combo ?

thanks again
Gord

 

[Lore]

First you have to know what a Ghost is...

A ghost is a Hypo Anery

You would get the following from the pair.

25.00% Normal(het. Amelanistic, het. Anerythristic, het. Hypomelanistic)
25.00% Anerythristic (het. Amelanistic, het. Hypomelanistic)
25.00% Hypomelanistic (het. Amelanistic, het. Anerythristic)
25.00% Ghost (het. Amelanistic)

 

[jaxom1957]

If I have a Ghost Male and a Amel het for ghost I should produce some ghosts ?

I tried using a corn program to help with what I will get but it does not have the option for het ghost ..

"Ghost" is not a morph of its own. It is an accepted description of two morphs working together in one snake: the anerythrism morph, eliminating the red and orange, working along side with the hypomelanism morph, reducing the intensity of the black pigment. What results is paler grey snake than anerythrism alone would produce. Technically, a snake cannot be truly "het for Ghost" because the two morphs that result in the phenotype act independently of each other. It's more accurate to say the a snake is het for anerythrism and hypomelanism, the two morphs that result in Ghost.

Your snakes, genotypically, are 1.0 anerythristic hypomelanistic and 0.1 amelanistic het anerythristic and hypomelanistic.

Because one parent is hypomelanistic (male), all offspring are AT LEAST het for hypomelanism. Because one parent is anerythristic (male), all offspring are AT LEAST het for anerythrism. Because one parent is amelanistic (female), but the other parents lacks that morph entirely, all offspring are het for amelanism.

Roughly one-fourth of the offspring will receive hypomelanism from the female as well as the male, making them hypomelanistic (as well as het anerythristic and amelanistic).

Roughly one-fourth of the offspring will receive anerythrism from the female as well as the male, making them anerythristic (as well as het hypomelanistic and amelanistic).

Roughly one-fourth of the offspring will receive both anerythrism and hypomelanism from both parents (as well as het amelanism from the female), making them anerythristic hypomelanistic ("Ghost") het amelanistic.

The remaining fourth will receive anerythrism and hypomelanism from the male and amelanism from the female, but will appear normal, as none of the morphs are supported by the other parent.

Expected offspring:

25% Anerythristic het Hypomelanistic + Amelanistic
25% Hypomelanistic het Anerythristic + Amelanistic
25% Anerythristic Hypomelanistic ("Ghost") het Amelanistic
25% Normal het Anerythristic + Hypomelanistic + Amelanistic

 

[Weebonilass]

G,

Thanks for the asking this guestion. I had the same problem with the two different programs I tried.



Jax,

I was told my Hypo was het for ghost by Kathy Love. I believe this was because his sire was a ghost and I believe his mother was a ghost by the same male.

 

[zwyatt]

I was told my Hypo was het for ghost by Kathy Love. I believe this was because his sire was a ghost and I believe his mother was a ghost by the same male.

If both the mother and father are ghost, then the offspring have to at least be a ghost (homozygous for anery and hypo). A hypo het ghost is a hypo het anery.

There are lots of other combinations that could produce a hypo het anery involving other hets and what not, but I believe this is the simplest:

Hypo Anery (Ghost) x Normal het Hypo = Hypo het Anery (Hypo het Ghost)

I think maybe there is just a problem in the terminology that you're using that I don't understand.

 

[Ssthisto]

I was told my Hypo was het for ghost by Kathy Love. I believe this was because his sire was a ghost and I believe his mother was a ghost by the same male.

If daddy was a ghost, then it doesn't matter what mom was - your snake is het for ghost (anery and hypo).

But if daddy was a ghost and mom was ALSO a ghost then the expected outcome cannot include non-anery animals (you'd get all ghosts, plus any hidden hets) - because a ghost is expressing two recessive genes, and if you breed an animal who is a visual (homozygous) recessive to another visual (homozygous) animal with the same gene... you can only get that homozygous recessive out of 'em.

Mom could well have been a hypo, however

 

[Weebonilass]

If daddy was a ghost, then it doesn't matter what mom was - your snake is het for ghost (anery and hypo).

But if daddy was a ghost and mom was ALSO a ghost then the expected outcome cannot include non-anery animals (you'd get all ghosts, plus any hidden hets) - because a ghost is expressing two recessive genes, and if you breed an animal who is a visual (homozygous) recessive to another visual (homozygous) animal with the same gene... you can only get that homozygous recessive out of 'em.

Mom could well have been a hypo, however

You are right, Mom could have been a hypo. Kathy has said she'll try to help me figure out if he can be registered when she gets home.

I know his father was a ghost as he was the big one that she included in her first book. The mother was a daughter of that one. His parentage was the reason for me buying a hypo instead of a ghost or one of the similiar coloured morphs. I reeeeeeeeeeeeally wanted one of his offspring

 

[jaxom1957]

I was told my Hypo was het for ghost by Kathy Love. I believe this was because his sire was a ghost and I believe his mother was a ghost by the same male.

Saying that a snake is "het for Ghost" is shorthand for "het for anerythristic hypomelanistic". I don't have a problem with it being called that. However, the phrase is inaccurate. "Ghost" is not a single causation phenomenon. The two mutations that create the coloration are not linked; whether one becomes expressed is totally independent of whether the other is expressed. That is why the programs to calculate offspring don't have a "het for Ghost" option.

This is just one example of the problems created when using commercialized names for multi-morph snakes. An "Avalanche" bred to a Classic "het for Avalanche" isn't going to produce 50% Avalanche and 50% Classic het for Avalanche. It is going to produce eight different combinations of genetic traits, only 1 in 8 appearing normal. The other 7/8th of the offspring will appear Amel, Amel Diffuse, Anery, Anery Diffuse, Diffuse, Snow or Avalanche.

That's why I said a snake cannot, to be accurate, be "het for Ghost", or for any other commercial name that describes a multi-locus set of independent morphs. The snakes are het for the individual components, not the combination. Calling a snake het for Ghost, Blizzard, Avalanche, Coral, etc. etc., is fine shorthand, but anyone looking to breed needs to understand the difference between single morphs and combination morphs, and keep in mind the appearance of the pieces, not the appearance of the puzzle.

 

[Weebonilass]

So, in my guy's case, Kathy was wrong and he's a hypo, het for hypo? Or based on his breeding which is aa ghost bred to his daughter either a hypo or normal, he would probably be het for nothing?

Somehow I think Kathy qualifies to be considered a knowlegable breeder, so guess I'm having trouble getting around why she would consider him het for ghost if there is no such thing.

 

[jaxom1957]

So, in my guy's case, Kathy was wrong and he's a hypo, het for hypo? Or based on his breeding which is aa ghost bred to his daughter either a hypo or normal, he would probably be het for nothing?

No, Kathy wasn't wrong, and your snake is het for hypo, het for anery. Whenever one parent is homozygous for a trait, it's offspring must be at least het for the trait. The father was homozygous for both hypomelanism and anerythrism, making your snake at least het for both. As you snake doesn't appear to be either, the only thing it can be is het for both.

Somehow I think Kathy qualifies to be considered a knowlegable breeder, so guess I'm having trouble getting around why she would consider him het for ghost if there is no such thing.

In saying he is "het for Ghost", Kathy is saying he is het for both of the mutations that, when appearing together, create offspring that are "Ghost". This thread began because you wanted to predict the offspring from a Ghost and a "het for Ghost", and could not find "het for Ghost" as an option in the genetic calculator. I've tried to explain why that option doesn't appear, as well as why, for breeding purposes, using commercial names for multi-morph characteristics, when heterozygous for each individual morph, is confusing and inaccurate.

Kathy is a well-respected, knowledgable breeder. That does not mean that her descriptions are always the most scientifically accurate. As is often the case with individuals who were participants during the early stages of a hobby, she uses descriptions that once seemed accurate, but that time has shown to be misleading. She has more than earned the right to describe her snakes as "Black Albino" or "Albino", even if anerythristic and amelanistic are the more technically accurate terms. As someone much newer to the hobby, I don't have the right either to correct her (I'm sure she is well aware of both scientific terms. Old habits are hard to break, and so long as her buyers know what she means, she shouldn't have to break them.) or disparage her. That was absolutely NOT my intention. My intent was to educate you as to what "het for" means when describing multi-morph snakes, and how to translate that into data you could use for predicting your offspring. If Kathy Love feels somehow slighted by what I've written, I apologize. Then again, I think she has better things to do than read my posts.

 

[jaxom1957]

I just noted that you described your snake in the first post as amel, but as hypomel in your signature. Is that the same snake? Do you mean hypomel as short for hypomelanistic, or short for hypomelanistic amelanistic? As your first description was amel, I'll assume the latter for this post. If your snake is hypomelanistic and amelanistic, it's a different ballgame. Homozygous for hypo, changes the expected results of breeding to the ghost drastically.

None of your offspring would appear "normal". They are all receiving the hypo allele from both parents. Half would be hypo, het anery and amel. The other half would be hypo anery (aka "ghost"), het het amel.

 

[Weebonilass]

No, Kathy wasn't wrong, and your snake is het for hypo, het for anery. Whenever one parent is homozygous for a trait, it's offspring must be at least het for the trait. The father was homozygous for both hypomelanism and anerythrism, making your snake at least het for both. As you snake doesn't appear to be either, the only thing it can be is het for both.

As I said in another post, I'm really good with horses, but having the hardest time getting my hands around this snake thing. Since my guy is hypomelanistic, he would be considered Hypo het for anerythrism, not ghost? I really truly want to label the right things right Might even make the programs work better.


I'm sorry for hijacking your thread, Lonewulf.

 

[Weebonilass]

I just noted that you described your snake in the first post as amel, but as hypomel in your signature. Is that the same snake? Do you mean hypomel as short for hypomelanistic, or short for hypomelanistic amelanistic? As your first description was amel, I'll assume the latter for this post. If your snake is hypomelanistic and amelanistic, it's a different ballgame. Homozygous for hypo, changes the expected results of breeding to the ghost drastically.

None of your offspring would appear "normal". They are all receiving the hypo allele from both parents. Half would be hypo, het anery and amel. The other half would be hypo anery (aka "ghost"), het het amel.

Sorry for the confusion, Jax. I was a bad poster and sort of hijacked Lonewulf's thread since he had some knowledgable posters paying attention. If he's old enough to drink, I owe him one if ever we should meet.

 

[jaxom1957]

As I said in another post, I'm really good with horses, but having the hardest time getting my hands around this snake thing. Since my guy is hypomelanistic, he would be considered Hypo het for anerythrism, not ghost? I really truly want to label the right things right Might even make the programs work better. (

I had a headstart from breeding cockatiels. I still find myself looking for sex-linked recessives

If your snake is hypo and you were told he is also het for ghost, yes. Hypo het for ghost is a bit redundant since it can't be heterozygous for the same something for which it is already homozygous. But I see it all the time with "Amel het for snow" (Amel het for Anery and Amel?...sure thing, boss.). Your snake would be:

Hypomelanistic het Anerythristic

Bred to your ghost female, the offspring would be 50% Hypo het Anery, 50% Hypo Anery ("ghost"). The offspring always get hypo from both parents, and always get anery from mom. It's a coin toss whether they also get the anery from dad (the het) so your expected results are an even split.

Sorry I didn't notice that I was blending too people. Are you sure you aren't at least het for Lonewulf? :crazy02:

 

[Susan]

Saying that a snake is "het for Ghost" is shorthand for "het for anerythristic hypomelanistic". I don't have a problem with it being called that. However, the phrase is inaccurate. "Ghost" is not a single causation phenomenon. The two mutations that create the coloration are not linked; whether one becomes expressed is totally independent of whether the other is expressed. That is why the programs to calculate offspring don't have a "het for Ghost" option.

This is just one example of the problems created when using commercialized names for multi-morph snakes. An "Avalanche" bred to a Classic "het for Avalanche" isn't going to produce 50% Avalanche and 50% Classic het for Avalanche. It is going to produce eight different combinations of genetic traits, only 1 in 8 appearing normal. The other 7/8th of the offspring will appear Amel, Amel Diffuse, Anery, Anery Diffuse, Diffuse, Snow or Avalanche.

That's why I said a snake cannot, to be accurate, be "het for Ghost", or for any other commercial name that describes a multi-locus set of independent morphs. The snakes are het for the individual components, not the combination. Calling a snake het for Ghost, Blizzard, Avalanche, Coral, etc. etc., is fine shorthand, but anyone looking to breed needs to understand the difference between single morphs and combination morphs, and keep in mind the appearance of the pieces, not the appearance of the puzzle.

Using the shorthand can be confusing to those that don't have a good grip on the genetics, but once someone understands it all, the shorthand comes in very handy, especially when writing the ID cards for 200+ hatchlings.

Once you know that a ghost is a hypo anery, using that term to describe het status is easy to understand.
Normal het anery and hypo = normal het ghost
Anery het hypo = anery het ghost
Hypo het anery = hypo het ghost
Amel het anery and hypo = amel het ghost = amel het snow and hypo = amel het coral snow
All of these terms are correct, IMO, and identify the genetics fully. It is basically personal preference as to what a breeder uses. Since I sort of specialize in ghosts, I prefer to use that term. There is more of a problem of labeling snakes as being het for a selectively bred morph, such as "het sunglow", "het Miami", "het Okeetee", and a personal pet peeve "het zigzag/aztec". And even though I am trying to perfect the pastel look in my ghosts and anerys, I would never call one of my snakes "het pastel". And when the time comes, I will not be writing hypo het amel, caramel and diffusion on all the hatchling ID cards. I'll use the shorthand version of hypo het sulfur.

 

[jaxom1957]

I am trying to perfect the pastel look in my ghosts and anerys, I would never call one of my snakes "het pastel".

The snake in your avatar - is that a Motley Pastel Ghost? Very nice color and pattern, though I prefer motley/stripe to homo motley. :-offtopic

And when the time comes, I will not be writing hypo het amel, caramel and diffusion on all the hatchling ID cards. I'll use the shorthand version of hypo het sulfur.

I highly recommend self-stick labels printed from the computer. Type one, print many.

 

[Susan]

:-offtopic

The snake in your avatar - is that a Motley Pastel Ghost? Very nice color and pattern, though I prefer motley/stripe to homo motley. :-offtopic

It's a lavender motley. And you can't tell the difference, phenotypically, between a homozygous motley and one that is carrying both a motley and a stripe gene. And since there is alot of confusion in the names there too, I have stopped using motley/stripe, as some confuse it with a striped motley, and have started using motley het stripe until something better comes along. They combined ultra and amel into ultramel, so maybe they should combine motley and stripe into stripley or motripe or something.

:-offtopic

I highly recommend self-stick labels printed from the computer. Type one, print many.

First, I would have to find the software to make and print the labels. Then the label paper to match the program and my printer. And since I rarely have an entire clutch of the exact same morph, I wouldn't be printing enough of the same thing to make it worth while. Besides, it takes much less time to just handwrite the info (DOB, sex, phenotype, genotype, parents) as I remove the hatchling from the incubator to it's individual container instead of having to run in to the computer, type it out, print it out and then go back to the snake room and hope I can remember which hatchling I just did.

 

[jaxom1957]

It's a lavender motley. And you can't tell the difference, phenotypically, between a homozygous motley and one that is carrying both a motley and a stripe gene.

Motley/Stripes seem to have a much higher incidence of very elongated saddles resembling interrupted stripes. Yes, you can find these in homo motleys, but they seem to occur more often in motley/stripe.

And I don't use motley het stripe because it implies homo for motley, het for stripe, which would be three alleles on one locus, an impossibility.

My suggestion would be "Stippled". Stippling is defined as drawing or painting in dots or short strokes, which I think nicely describes the patterns of snakes het for motley + stripe. It has the advantage of seeming to borrow the letters from both - STrIPe motLEy.

That's my "Brilliant at 4 AM" :idea: thought, likely to be followed by my "(somewhere around noon) What was I babbling last night?" thought. :dunce:

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

And since there is alot of confusion in the names there too, I have stopped using motley/stripe, as some confuse it with a striped motley, and have started using motley het stripe until something better comes along.

Here, here! :crazy02:

 

[Kat]

. That does not mean that her descriptions are always the most scientifically accurate. As is often the case with individuals who were participants during the early stages of a hobby, she uses descriptions that once seemed accurate, but that time has shown to be misleading. She has more than earned the right to describe her snakes as "Black Albino" or "Albino", even if anerythristic and amelanistic are the more technically accurate terms.

To note, it's neither inaccurate nor inappropriate to use shorthands like "het ghost", "motley het stripe", or "ultramel". Furthermore, alternate names like "Black Albino" and "Albino" are not inappropriate either. There is no requirement that the label on the snake be "scientifically accurate" so long as it's a reasonable and non-misleading description (to anyone with the cornsnake vocabulary) of what the snake is or is carrying. For example, "human" is a perfectly good description of most people on these forums, but Homo sapiens is more scientifically accurate. So anyway... my point is, it's perfectly OK to use "het ghost" and the like, and it's actually less wordy and perfectly understandable to the majority of the cornsnake hobbyists. You don't have to be Kathy Love to have "earned the right" to use the term.

-Kat