Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
Hard to tell, the flash has washed out the picture. I think I see tones of pink, which you don't see on normal snows (except babies).
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- Thread starter Chip
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Hard to tell, the flash has washed out the picture. I think I see tones of pink, which you don't see on normal snows (except babies).
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
I wish I knew. A lot of people have been working on pink snows and ghosts for a long time, and I wasn't one of them. I've just bought a couple over the years -and never even tried outcrossing any. None turned out as bright as Graham's animal, and I think I have only one adult female left. I may run this Strange Cargo male through her next year, but we'll have to see. It's probably safe to say a lot of people started with the JMG lines, so it only stands to reason that the same genes popped up in other breeder's projects. I would bet that some lines have strawberry/hypo, others have red factor, and still others have both. That's a guess, but I'd drop a 20 bucks on it in Vegas. My biggest curiosity is what "else" is in some of these? And is red mask/factor/coat/etc. another situation where we have 11 terms to cover the same mutation? I think red coat is an intensifier of red, and red factor is a wash of red over the whole animal, but I neither can personally confirm that nor even know for sure what is in some of my own stock.
notserp
New member
ya, I tried with no flash and it was even worse. She definetly has strong pinks and peachy colors, mostly on he upper third of her body. I sure hope she has th Hypo gene. I'm still confused on the names and I'm sure people are calling the same snakes different names but what is the general name for a Hypo, Anery, Amel? aka Hypo Snow, aka Coral Snow?
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
In theory, hypo shouldn't express in an amel animal. A reduction of melanin can't do much to an absence of melanin. Of course, we know this isn't always so. Our genetic glossary terms are just approximations of what the genes actually are. Are all hypo coral snows pink? I didn't think so, but I'd love to hear other's opinions.
notserp
New member
Thank you for your well educated opion. I really appreciate it : )
dave partington
Crazy Dave
Jim S developed Strawberry. Much later Chuck identified the Strawberry Gene.
With the original Bloodreds,
they were dark dark red snakes with the side and
top pattern which faded out or blended together with age,
a couple layers of surface red translucence on the first two layers of the skin surface,
then they had that deep red base/ground color,
and finally they had those annoying white splashes
on their bellies that breeders tried to get away from originally.
Each of those 4 genetic things which composed an original oldschool bloodred
is now several different things.
The Red coating, the red base color, the diffusion, and the white bellies
which appears to have been pied all along, but breeders were trying to get rid of it instead of
breeding to make the white more expansive.
When I see the base color of a bloodred, independent of the other three genetic things going on,
I sometimes wonder (I do not know) if that is possibly the early base of 'strawberry',
and, if, over time and re-selection and tweaking through breeding,
if that is Maybe possibly where "the strawberries" come from.
"what if" "Strawberry, the old-school trait" and "The Strawberry Gene"
are two different things with a common ancestral stage in its development?
*Post made with lots of indents to reduce left right scrolling to read it
With the original Bloodreds,
they were dark dark red snakes with the side and
top pattern which faded out or blended together with age,
a couple layers of surface red translucence on the first two layers of the skin surface,
then they had that deep red base/ground color,
and finally they had those annoying white splashes
on their bellies that breeders tried to get away from originally.
Each of those 4 genetic things which composed an original oldschool bloodred
is now several different things.
The Red coating, the red base color, the diffusion, and the white bellies
which appears to have been pied all along, but breeders were trying to get rid of it instead of
breeding to make the white more expansive.
When I see the base color of a bloodred, independent of the other three genetic things going on,
I sometimes wonder (I do not know) if that is possibly the early base of 'strawberry',
and, if, over time and re-selection and tweaking through breeding,
if that is Maybe possibly where "the strawberries" come from.
"what if" "Strawberry, the old-school trait" and "The Strawberry Gene"
are two different things with a common ancestral stage in its development?
*Post made with lots of indents to reduce left right scrolling to read it
Last edited:
Tara80
ACR Breeder # 787
It appears that we've got multiple red genes at play and they are mixing and mingling together because we, as breeders, are *intentionally* doing this, to compound the pink. The problem is, we are doing so visually and prior to actually understanding what genes are at play.
We have:
*Hypo A. - simple recessive
*Strawberry (allelic to hypo) - simple recessive
*Christmas (not a lot of study in this one yet) - allelic to strawberry AND hypo (so the thought is anyway) - simple recessive also
*Red Factor/Red coat - Dominant red masque affect; or APPEARS to be dominant - possibly a simple recessive that shows through to an extreme (as heterozygous)?
Many speculate about a second dominant red that is not allelic to red factor. Are red factor and red coat DIFFERENT? Or are they the same thing? These are questions that many of us are attempting to answer, I suppose.
We have:
*Hypo A. - simple recessive
*Strawberry (allelic to hypo) - simple recessive
*Christmas (not a lot of study in this one yet) - allelic to strawberry AND hypo (so the thought is anyway) - simple recessive also
*Red Factor/Red coat - Dominant red masque affect; or APPEARS to be dominant - possibly a simple recessive that shows through to an extreme (as heterozygous)?
Many speculate about a second dominant red that is not allelic to red factor. Are red factor and red coat DIFFERENT? Or are they the same thing? These are questions that many of us are attempting to answer, I suppose.
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
Snow:
Coral Snow:
I'm still confused on the effects of hypo on snows. Is the addition of hypo all that a coral snow is? Looking at a hypo fire stripe beside a fire stripe there is no outward difference at all that I can see (and my non-hypo fire stripe is supposed to be red factor). Does hypo change amel in some combinations and not others? Has anyone here had animals with *just* hypo and amel genes (I'm wondering if I haven't at some point)? If so, are they visually different?
Coral Snow:
I'm still confused on the effects of hypo on snows. Is the addition of hypo all that a coral snow is? Looking at a hypo fire stripe beside a fire stripe there is no outward difference at all that I can see (and my non-hypo fire stripe is supposed to be red factor). Does hypo change amel in some combinations and not others? Has anyone here had animals with *just* hypo and amel genes (I'm wondering if I haven't at some point)? If so, are they visually different?
Tara80
ACR Breeder # 787
Chip, I have a strawberry amel. The color saturation on him does appear to be a little deeper/richer - if that makes any sense. But to the untrained eye, he would be called "just an amel". He just doesn't have much, if any, white border patches and the red/orange is a little... deeper.
I will have to take some photos of him when I get the time.
Maybe the hypo locus can affect the amel locus to a small degree. Think of Ultra, which DOES counteract amel; almost shutting it down. Although ultra and amel are allelic and hypo and amel are not, maybe there is some sort of linking going on, where one can slightly affect the other. The 'coding' that produces melanin is essentially receiving two separate sets of commands. One that says "reduce melanin" while one says "produce NO melanin".
I will have to take some photos of him when I get the time.
Maybe the hypo locus can affect the amel locus to a small degree. Think of Ultra, which DOES counteract amel; almost shutting it down. Although ultra and amel are allelic and hypo and amel are not, maybe there is some sort of linking going on, where one can slightly affect the other. The 'coding' that produces melanin is essentially receiving two separate sets of commands. One that says "reduce melanin" while one says "produce NO melanin".
notserp
New member
I am so confused. I'm trying to get a grip on more complicated genetics then I'm used to. Its so hard to tell what your hatchlings are if you buy a snake from someone that gives you the wrong hets : ( Also genes that are present in the appearance of the animal but are hard to see. Like the hypo in a Snow. It would be nice to know in order to plan for her sire. Wouldn't it be nice to have a machine that you could put your snake in and it would tell you all the genetics.
notserp
New member
I try not to deal with people who are guessing.I don't even like poss hets, personally.
I wouldn't either if I knew they were guessing. I have just heard many stories about people not getting what they were told they were. It is harder to find the right snake I'm looking for where I live so I have bought from people who I can't completly trust.
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
Well, if you sell things that don't prove out, you'll wind up having a bad name in no time. There are many, many reputable breeders here that I would trust completely. I still like working with visuals, unless it's something I simply can't afford. In that case, I usually sell a bunch of stuff and buy it anyway.
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
A couple of months later, I figured I'd update. It was a little dark and my camera phone didn't use the flash, so I followed each up with my point and shoot.
Female I would have moved her to a poop-free area, but she has a full belly:
Male (slightly blue):
Female I would have moved her to a poop-free area, but she has a full belly:
Male (slightly blue):
vetusvates
Gamaliel's Principle
Thanks for the update, Chip. Nice snakes.
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
Post shed, they look much better. Funny thing is, until this shed, the male has always looked much brighter than the female. As of this new skin, I think she's pulling away from him. Much lighter, and the pinks are hot.
Male:
Female:
Couldn't get her front and back half both in focus on the flower setting...
Male:
Female:
Couldn't get her front and back half both in focus on the flower setting...